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There must be uncaused cause even in an infinite chain.

AskTheFamily

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Or were they created from nothingness? or are they the creators? (52:35)

This verse encourages mankind to think about possible origins of their existence. It asks two questions that humanity till today are in general consensus of their obsurdity.

No one believing that the universes could have simply came out of nothingness. Nor does any rational person think that his own soul is the creator of all he sees and hears nor that that humans created this universe. We know we creation were not the origin of this universe.

However more rational questions were not the gist of flow of these verses, but were rather asking us questions that we know are false. However, we then are encouraged to think of what is rationally possible and not absurd.

It's obvious that our bodies are a series of cause and effect. The whole of our body is also an effect. The planet earth is also an effect that has a cause and within this planet, there is many causes and effects.

Now with the notion every effect has a cause, we can say our body has a cause or causes. A series of causes can also be labelled "a cause", just like our bodies which is a series of effects can be called "a effect".

Now many people of concluded due to this fact, there must be at the end, a Cause that has no Causer, and is Uncaused. That is known as the Eternal Creator of the Universe.

Others disagree and have said that a chain of endless cause and effect is just a rational conclusion and one cannot simply infer that there is uncaused Cause to the universe by this.

However if we look at the issue it is obvious that the latter notion is false. We said our bodies were a series of cause and effect, but our whole body can be called an effect as well, and hence needs a cause. The body cannot be said to be self-creating cause with no need, while the whole of it formed of effects. The same can be said about an infinite chain of cause and effect, every single of the infinite chain itself would be an effect, so the whole chain would be an effect. As every effect needs a cause, the whole infinitiate chain is also an effect and in need of a cause.

Hence there needs to a Cause to even that. But if there was Uncaused Cause, it's obviously ration to conclude that then it's not really an infinite chain anymore, but that the that it is limited chain, that begins. However either way, there needs to be Uncaused Causer and Mover to get the universe going.

Some people think it's through observation that we conclude, from nothing, nothing follows. However, this is not the case, rather it's seen as an known knowledge that is not subject to observation. If we saw things appearing apparently out of no where, we would conclude there is a cause. So the fact the universe cannot come from nothing is a fact. As well as that the universe is an effect is a fact, and it's been shown even if a infinite series of cause and effect, it's still an effect. Therefore there is Uncaused Cause to the Universe, and Unmoved mover to the universe.
 

AskTheFamily

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I will make it short:

Every effect needs a cause.
A series of effects is an effect in need of a cause (like our body is a series of an effects that is need of a cause).
Universe is a series of effects.
An infinite chain of cause and effect without uncaused, is still, series of effect, and thus in need of cause.

Thus we can conclude that there is Uncaused Cause. It's logical conclusive decision.

A billion universes, series together, etc, all this doesn't change the fact, the whole of the universe is a series of effects, be it an infinite change of cause and effect, or not.

So there is an Uncaused Cause.
 
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AskTheFamily

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Appealing to Richard Dawkins "super genius" status is not an option.

Appealing to cliches "What caused the Uncaused Creator", is not an option.

Appealing to the question that has been answered "why can't the universe be uncaused/eternal?" is not an option

Appealing to, "scientist theorize perhaps atoms pop of nothingness", is not an option.

The only option is, I accept there is Uncaused Creator.
 
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AskTheFamily

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If it is an infinite chain then there is no uncaused cause. Otherwise it wouldn't be infinite.

If there is an infinite chain, there must be uncaused cause. If there is uncaused cause, there is no infinite chain. This makes it a contradiction.

This makes infinite chain impossible. So Creationist can conclude that there is no infinite series of cause and effect.

While infinite chain would still be an effect in need of uncaused cause, however, uncaused cause shows it's not possible there is infinite chain.

This is not addressing the argument just like the arguments were all ignored in the design thread.
 
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SithDoughnut

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If there is an infinite chain, there must be uncaused cause.

No - if it is infinite, every cause has its own cause. Such is the nature of infinity.

If there is uncaused cause, there is no infinite chain. This makes it a contradiction.

This makes infinite chain impossible. So Creationist can conclude that there is no infinite series of cause and effect.

While infinite chain would still be an effect in need of uncaused cause, however, uncaused cause shows it's not possible there is infinite chain.
You're getting the first premise wrong, so the rest does not logically follow. An infinite chain has no first cause, or it wouldn't be infinite.

This is not addressing the argument just like the arguments were all ignored in the design thread.
I addressed the argument. You got the first premise wrong.
 
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SithDoughnut

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Appealing to Richard Dawkins "super genius" status is not an option.

Appealing to cliches "What caused the Uncaused Creator", is not an option.

Appealing to the question that has been answered "why can't the universe be uncaused/eternal?" is not an option

Appealing to, "scientist theorize perhaps atoms pop of nothingness", is not an option.

The only option is, I accept there is Uncaused Creator.


Why is none of that an option? You're just making claims without backing them up. You really need to learn how to use evidence to actually make sensible arguments.
 
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AskTheFamily

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No - if it is infinite, every cause has its own cause. Such is the nature of infinity.

If it's infinite, every cause has a cause. I agree. The whole thing is still an effect? Or do you disagree?

Every effect needs a cause. The whole thing is an effect, the whole thing is need of cause. That cause cannot be part of it, because it would be "part of the infinite series" which is an effect.

The "whole infinite chain of cause and effect" that is assumed to possible, is an "effect" in itself that is need of Cause. It's obvious, just think about it.

A body is an effect, we can say the whole body is need of cause, even if it is a series of cause and effect. Same with universe, even if we suppose it's an infinite chain of cause and effect, the whole thing is still in need of Cause by the premise that every effect is in need of cause.


You're getting the first premise wrong, so the rest does not logically follow. An infinite chain has no first cause, or it wouldn't be infinite.
Logical arguments sometimes takes the following.

Assume true.
Implication of assumption stated.
Implication proven false.
Assumtion false.


A -> B
B is false.
A is false.
 
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AskTheFamily

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If anyone will disagree with universe being an effect, you tell me which part of the universe is not in effect, which time of it, is not a effect?

So the whole thing is an effect. And every effect is in need of cause. The only thing is not an effect is Uncaused cause. All effects (including an infinite series one which is impossible for sake of argument) are need of Cause, hence "the whole universe" is need of Uncaused creator.

Now I guess people can say no "every effect doesn't need a cause", which is denying the very definition of "effect" btw. It's really laughable.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Every effect needs a cause.

By definition. But is everything that has ever existed in this universe an effect? This has not been shown to be true.

If anyone will disagree with universe being an effect, you tell me which part of the universe is not in effect, which time of it, is not a effect?

Hold on! You are the one making a claim here.

But, logically, if there were ever a time in which the universe would contain that which wasn't an effect, it would be the first instant of time.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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AskTheFamily

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By definition. But is everything that has ever existed in this universe an effect? This has not been shown to be true.


eudaimonia,

Mark

If it's not an effect, it's uncaused. Uncaused cannot not have any causes. So we both agree on uncaused Cause?

Now the question is, something in time in effect? The answer is yes, it's an state that has effect from a previous state.

So there is Uncaused Cause.

Which part of the universe is not in effect from a cause? I think it's rational to conclude everything in time is an effect and this a self-evident fact. Do you disagree?
 
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Eudaimonist

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If it's not an effect, it's uncaused. Uncaused cannot not have any causes. So we both agree on uncaused Cause?

Yes, the physical universe. Just that.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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AskTheFamily

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But, logically, if there were ever a time in which the universe would contain that which wasn't an effect, it would be the first instant of time.

You mean there was no movement, then all a sudden movement with no outside cause?
 
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AskTheFamily

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Yes, the physical universe. Just that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Your part of the physical universe, you have a cause.

So define what you mean by it. Universe equals the whole thing now, or now and in the past. It's in time. Time implies it's in effect.

An infinite amount time, still means, it all in constant effect. But if the whole thing is an effect, it needs a Cause by the premise every effect is in need of a cause. The whole thing is thus created by Uncaused Cause.
 
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Eudaimonist

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You mean there was no movement, then all a sudden movement with no outside cause?

No, since time would start with movement, and the cause would be whatever existed at the very start.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Universe equals the whole thing now, or now and in the past.

I meant the universe, in whatever form it existed, at the beginning of time.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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AskTheFamily

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No, since time would start with movement, and the cause would be whatever existed at the very start.

Ok so this is not infinite chain so the argument of this thread was not aimed at this but this is even easier to refute. It has a start, the start implies it has begining. It couldn't have just began and "start". If it's Eternal, it's motionless, it;s away is. If the start is moving, it's not always is, and it has begining, and hence, not the First Existence, but the first existence is what created it.
 
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AskTheFamily

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I meant the universe, in whatever form it existed, at the beginning of time.


eudaimonia,

Mark


Well if you agree there is a begining to time, then this argument was not aimed at that.

It's clear if there was start to universe, and it was not infinite cause and effect, there is Uncaused Cause and Mover. This is not something really disputable.

Something can not just start and go, and be the start, with nothing to cause it. If it's begining (start) and changes in time, that begining didn;t always exist.

It's a clear fact. If time is finite,it follows there is a Creator.
 
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