There must be something I'm missing: please help!

First and most importantly,
Nice to meet you
I love that you are so open, honest, and that you are truly interested in our opinions. I also wanted to say to everyone else that I appreciate you all being so wonderful to this seeker! This is what following the teachings of Christ is all about.

randompalindrome said:

Whats the difference between atheists and theists?
I've always thought that one group knew something the other one didn't, you guys knew something I didn't or I knew something you didn't (this now seems quite illogical). From what you're all saying the difference appears to be faith and belief.

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I think that there is nothing "different" per se between atheists and theists, other than that each has come to a different conclusion for the "why" of life. My "faith" is a very well thought out, very reasoned, and very logical set of theories I choose to believe. And yes, even Atheists believe in something... to state that anything exists is to believe in it (ie any word used to describe something is used with the belief that there is a true meaning of that word or set of words)

Based on the evidence (complexities of a human body, the delicate balance of our worlds ecology, the beauty of nature, the concept of beauty itself (what purpose does it serve the rose to be so beautiful? It is dangerous to us - thorns - and yet we perceive it as beautiful?), the fact that a smile is a smile everywhere in the world, and thousands of other pieces of evidence), I cannot logically believe otherwise. I personally dislike a lot of the components of faith. I don't like not knowing what is coming next. I don't like uncertainty. I don't feel comfortable trusting an unseen being to be in charge of my life. But what else am I to do? The evidence is so overwhelming that as a logical being, I have to submit to God and specifically to Christ.

The thing is that you seem to like belief and faith but I abhor the stuff, why do you like it?

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Actually, as I said before, large parts of it frustrate me, and I don't "like" it, I just know it to be true, and have to follow that truth. Over the last decade or so, I've grown to love the results of my faith (assurance of an afterlife, direction and purpose in this life, better more loving relationships with those around me). So, in that sense, yes, I guess at this point in my life I am beginning to "like" faith and all that stuff, but it definitely did not start out that way.

If you someone told you that there are electrons would you just accept or want to know why you should believe in electrons?

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Absolutely not. I would want to see and understand. Now, of course, since there are so many people who have studied this, and have come to the same conclusion, I trust their determination that, in fact, electrons exists, but that is because their existence or non-existence does not affect my life in any way. If it made the difference between eternal life in a wondrous place as opposed to eternal nothingness or eternal suffering, I would most definitely spend my entire life trying to confirm whether or not they existed, and if I knew that their existing was the only way to be certain that I could have that eternal wonderful life, I would not stop until I found them, even to the point of my deathbed, regardless of what it cost me in this life.

I think this might be the difference, I hate belief without evidence and you live with it.
This may should like I'm attacking you but its just a train of thought.
/discuss <---(isn't that cool)

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Actually, I hate belief without evidence as well. If I had 10+ years to discuss it all with you, I could show you such evidence that you would never be able to ever again say that God does not exist, but typing in a forum slows the communication down quite a bit. Seriously, check out some of these books:
The Evidence Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell
Mere Christianity by CS Lewis

Their logical progression of explaining why they believe what they believe may help you in a greater way than anything we can say here will. These men delve deep into the whys of our belief, and in The Evidence Demands a Verdict, you will find the evidence of God that I speak of (and for me, the evidence has nothing to do with the "emotional" side of faith... I just enjoy the emotional side of it now that I finally have found the truth through logical progression of facts and theories.

I live in the UK and love douglas adams RIP (he was an atheist)

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Love his works!!! Great author with a creative gift from God. I believe even those that don't believe in God still have the gifts He gives them regardless of how they use them.

I was a christian up to, about, age 9. The only reason I believed is that I had gone to church all my life and never questioned the whole god thing. I thought my parents wouldn't lie to me.
The evolution thing is hard but people who reject it tend not to understand it. I'm reading a book by richard dawkins which is making evolution make more sence (Climbing mount improbable)

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I still do not believe your parents have lied to you, unless they are hypocrites, and do not believe in God themselves, but expected you to do so.

I disagree with Evolution based on the science itself (Trust me, I have read and researched and fully understand what Evolution purports... I believe in Natural Selection but not in Evolutionary change). I agree that the facts point to a millions or billions of years old earth, and I do not disagree with this assessment. I agree that the facts point to humanlike creatures on this earth for hundreds of thousands of years. I also agree that there was a cataclysmic flood (science concurs) that destroyed large amounts of the earth. But I also agree that the humans that now walk the earth are descendants of one man and one woman, classically named Adam and Eve, and I believe that this type of humanity (different from the type that existed over 100s of thousands of years.... ie a different species from those fossils) has only been on this earth for around 6,000-10,000 years. I have many scientific reasons for believing all of these things, and when/if I run into things that are proven to contradict my beliefs, I reexamine my faith, reexamine the scriptures I believe in, and try to reconcile the two. To date, I have never found anything that contradicts the core of my faith, and I have never lacked evidence to support my faith.

So, you see, Evidence is the key to my faith, not the opposite of it.

And if I haven't bored you to death , and you are still reading this, I hope this helps you in your quest for understanding.

whatfor said:

you want proof? it will never come. were it available there would be no faith, for there would be no need

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I like that, I never thought of it like that.

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Just a quick interjection. I've not been following the conversation and I'm not sure who you're quoting, but this is unfortunately a misunderstanding of the term faith. Pistis, in the greek has nothing to do with belief in the absence of proof. Biblical faith is not blind ascent, it's simply placing your trust and loyalty in something. It has nothing to do with evidence or the lack thereof. This is a modern idea that's crept into the term. God wants us to seek. We are never encouraged to believe blindly. Faith based on good evidence is vastly preferable and less likely to shipwreck.

Here's a great article for anyone not sure about the nature of biblical faith.

Fallacious Faith
Correcting an All-too-Common Misconception
James Patrick Holding

randompalindrome said:

Hello, I'm an ateist and I need to talk to some theists.
The main problem is that I don't understand why theists believe in god, I just don't get it. maybe i never will but ought to try anyway.
All the theists I know either won't talk to me or wont explain it properly.
I really need help here.
Why do you believe in god? Why are some people atheists and some theists?
I have another question as well.
Do you (christians) not understnd atheists; is this a two way problem or is it just me??

2 rules please:
you can't refer that 'feeling' because that pushes me furthur from understanding.
If your refer to the bible please look at it the way I'd look at it, critically. Feel free to quote but you have to understand that I believe that the bible isn't the word of god and hold little value apart from philosophical value.

Also I really don't like the fact that there is a chiristain only section but its your site.

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I did not grow up with any religious instruction, so I can relate to those who never did either and are still unbelievers today.

When I was a very young adult and someone who was conversing with me was even trying to bring religion into it, a wall would just go up in my brain. If someone mentioned God to me, I saw (It, He or She) as someone trying to put a harness on me. I just could not see how anyone could go through life living on restriction.

For we (Gospel preachers) are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. (2Cor.2:15-16)

So the thought of God made me reject any Religion. If a God existed, it would have meant that I would be forced to let some spiritual salesman present the product that I disliked, and be forced to buy it....or else.

Then a little later in life, I discovered how people come to truly believe in a creator. It is when you get so psychologically & emotionally battered that you either choose to try to reinforce these shields, or, decide to throw your lifeline out into the unknown for this being to grab hold and stabilize you. The most ultimate, intimate, moment you will ever experience this side of heaven.

As far as a need for a God in one's life, Christians are taught that it rarely occurs is certain people's lives:

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the fooolish things of the world to confound the wise: and God hath chosen the the weak things of the world to confound the the things which are mighty: And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and the insignificant, to bring to insignificance the things that are significant. (1Cor.1:26-28)

Hi, great question because up until I was about 13 years old, I was I guess you could say agnostic? I wanted evidence just like you want right now but it just wouldn't come to me. One day, a friend of mine was talking about Biblical prophecy and how it is coming true at a pretty rapid rate. So of course, being myself, I had to go research it online and look at all the references in the Bible regarding prophecies. If you take the time to actually look at prophecy in the Bible, it will actually creep you out at first because of the amazing accuracy. I remember I even told myself that it had to be written after the events took place because of how accurate it was. Just search about fulfilled and upcoming prophecies and you'll see what I am talking about. God knows every little detail about what happened at the beginning, and knows every little detail about what is in store for the future.

God Bless

randompalindrome said:

Hello, I'm an ateist and I need to talk to some theists.
The main problem is that I don't understand why theists believe in god, I just don't get it. maybe i never will but ought to try anyway.
All the theists I know either won't talk to me or wont explain it properly.
I really need help here.
Why do you believe in god? Why are some people atheists and some theists?
I have another question as well.
Do you (christians) not understnd atheists; is this a two way problem or is it just me??

2 rules please:
you can't refer that 'feeling' because that pushes me furthur from understanding.
If your refer to the bible please look at it the way I'd look at it, critically. Feel free to quote but you have to understand that I believe that the bible isn't the word of god and hold little value apart from philosophical value.

Also I really don't like the fact that there is a chiristain only section but its your site.

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Greetings
I'll help you, if you do these things for the next 7 days, ask God to make his presence real to you, and you will believe, and follow him.

that is If you really want to know if God is Real. If your really serious about it all , he will make you know he's real, but how I don't know, but you will.

Dare you.
Rev Malone

Calminian said:

Just a quick interjection. I've not been following the conversation and I'm not sure who you're quoting, but this is unfortunately a misunderstanding of the term faith. Pistis, in the greek has nothing to do with belief in the absence of proof. Biblical faith is not blind ascent, it's simply placing your trust and loyalty in something. It has nothing to do with evidence or the lack thereof. This is a modern idea that's crept into the term. God wants us to seek. We are never encouraged to believe blindly. Faith based on good evidence is vastly preferable and less likely to shipwreck.

Here's a great article for anyone not sure about the nature of biblical faith.

Fallacious Faith
Correcting an All-too-Common Misconception
James Patrick Holding

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scripture handles the definition perfectly well i think:

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

the trust is correct, because when we lack proof, we must trust. trust is unnecessary when things are irrefutable.

reverend B said:

scripture handles the definition perfectly well i think:

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

the trust is correct, because when we lack proof, we must trust. trust is unnecessary when things are irrefutable.

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This verse has nothing to do with blind faith. The greek literally reads,

And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

The NKJV renders it,

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The fact that something is not seen, does not mean there is no evidence for it. I've never seen George Washington, yet I'm quite confident he lived. The evidence is quite overwhelming to anyone willing to look. The author of Hebrews knows most of his audience will never see Jesus personally. But this does not mean there is not ample evidence to justify placing one's trust in Him. The written testimonial evidence alone is more than enough. This is covered much better in JP Holding's articles. I highly suggest it. And again, blind faith is in direct contradiction to seeking&#8212;something the bible emphasizes over and over.

This idea of a leap of faith or stepping out in faith is relatively new to christianity. Historically virtually all theologians were evidential in their apologetics. Many church historians see the change to fideism occurring around the time of Hume's challenges to biblical miracles. The church seemed to fold at that time in the rational arena and resort of a feeling/emotional based gospel. Fortunately, this has changed back, probably starting with CS Lewis. Apologetics is back and God is using it greatly. Another great resource to check out (for anyone interested) is the book, Classical Apologetics, A Rational Defense of the Christian Faith and Critique of Presuppositional Apologetics, by RC Sproul and others. Here's a very reformed theologian, yet classical in his apologetics. A great read.

Calminian said:

This verse has nothing to do with blind faith. The greek literally reads,

And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

The NKJV renders it,

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The fact that something is not seen, does not mean there is no evidence for it. I've never seen George Washington, yet I'm quite confident he lived. The evidence is quite overwhelming to anyone willing to look. The author of Hebrews knows most of his audience will never see Jesus personally. But this does not mean there is not ample evidence to justify placing one's trust in Him. The written testimonial evidence alone is more than enough. This is covered much better in JP Holding's articles. I highly suggest it. And again, blind faith is in direct contradiction to seeking&#8212;something the bible emphasizes over and over.

This idea of a leap of faith or stepping out in faith is relatively new to christianity. Historically virtually all theologians were evidential in their apologetics. Many church historians see the change to fideism occurring around the time of Hume's challenges to biblical miracles. The church seemed to fold at that time in the rational arena and resort of a feeling/emotional based gospel. Fortunately, this has changed back, probably starting with CS Lewis. Apologetics is back and God is using it greatly. Another great resource to check out (for anyone interested) is the book, Classical Apologetics, A Rational Defense of the Christian Faith and Critique of Presuppositional Apologetics, by RC Sproul and others. Here's a very reformed theologian, yet classical in his apologetics. A great read.

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plenty of evidence, just no proof. take it easy, calamine, we really aren't adversaries on this one.