There is something missing..

[Jefell]

Where are / what happened to the original writings scribed during the time of Jesus? Any validity to them being hidden / destroyed by Muhammad of Islam?

The Roman Empire spoke Greek at that time..
Jesus mainly spoke Aramaic ..

What language are the oldest writings regarding Jesus? Greek or Latin?

Physically, where are these writings?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Portions of the Old Testament from prior to the time of Jesus Christ were found in the Dead Sea scrolls. None of these are the original manuscripts, but are copies made by Essene scribes. It is highly unlikely that Mohammed even came close to seeing the original manuscripts, as he was illiterate himself. Anyone who reads the Qu'ran and the BIble realizes that Mohammed was enormously ignorant of the Bible. For example, he stated that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was also the sister of Moses. The oldest manuscript of the New Testament is part of the gospel of Mark, dating from the second century.

The manuscripts have disappeared. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew with a few bits in Aramaic and the New Testament was written in Greek.

I hope this answers your questions.

 

[Jefell]

thank you! it definately helps

 

[Epiphoskei]

I'm pretty sure the oldest manuscript is from John, c. 125 A.D.
I think it's called P52.

 

[Garbageman]

Just a side note, Muhammed was born 570 AD doubt he saw it that much later

 

[Smilebomb]

I'm pretty sure the oldest manuscript is from John, c. 125 A.D.
I think it's called P52.

This is true. But it is a fragment, nothing of substance except to prove that the gospel had most likely been authored by that time. The first full New Testament manuscript? At least the one we read today? Codex Sinaiticus, which dates to about 350 CE. It only has portions of the Old Testament though, and a few books in the New Testament that don't want to agree with the canon we use today. Codex Vaticanus, dated to about 325 CE, which is the earliest I believe, doesn't contain all of "our" books though.

The earliest manuscript with the canon we use today, no more no less? I believe it is Codex Ephraemi, which is a 5th century codex. So 500 years after the fact...

What language are the oldest writings regarding Jesus? Greek or Latin?

Concerning just the fragments? Greek. But whole testaments? The Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are latin.

Physically, where are these writings?

Not sure where "those" are off the top of my head...

But anyway, the op question, where are the autographs. Gone, most likely destroyed by accident through war and fire. Or maybe nature just had its way with them. But the bigger quesiton, why aren't we concerned about not having them...

 

[E.C.]

Some could be within the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Or Jerusalem.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Some could be within the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Or Jerusalem.

Too true. These old fashioned types keep looking through their old libraries and archives and discovering, "oh, look, more Bible! I never knew this was here!"

That exact thing happened to Codex Siniaticus recently. The NT text was complete, but some OT was missing. The monks found a whole room under their kitchen during a fire which appears to have been the place the monks put pages that had been lost from other Books. The rest of Siniaticus' OT was found there.

Sheesh, it's like these guys never heard of the Dewey Decimal System.

 

[E.C.]

Sheesh, it's like these guys never heard of the Dewey Decimal System.

Let's consider:
-7th century Islam begins and conquers Palestine in the mid 7th century.
-Byzantine Empire falls in 1453.
-The first non-Muslim rulers in that region don't happen until 1918-19 as a direct result of the Versailles treaty.
-The Dewey Decimal System didn't come around until the... 1870's.
-Many many many many many MANY treasures of various sorts within monasteries (relics, texts, icons, etc) were hidden since the 7th century to prevent destruction from the Muslims. Many still are, some are no longer hidden any more.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Oh what I would give to be given free reign to go digging through constantinople. Mind you, Uncials give me a serious headache whenever I try reading them, so would need some practice first... and a good supply of ibuprofin.

But your mention of muslim conquests leads into an interesting observation. If the earliest copies of the bible were destroyed as Islam teaches, it was probably by the Muslims themselves rather than early Christians. We're veritable packrats when it comes to old manuscripts.

 

[Rindicella]

Where are / what happened to the original writings scribed during the time of Jesus? Any validity to them being hidden / destroyed by Muhammad of Islam?

They destroyed lots of things during the Crusades, but nothing that hadn't already been copied and distributed. And hidden, frankly, in monasteries so they wouldn't be destroyed by the Muslims.

The Roman Empire spoke Greek at that time..
Jesus mainly spoke Aramaic ..

What language are the oldest writings regarding Jesus? Greek or Latin?

Physically, where are these writings?

Greek. They are within the Eastern Orthodox church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the Armenian Orthodox Church, the Coptic Churches of Egypt. In short, they are held by the Orthodox.
The Vatican has many early copies. Much of these writings are included in what you know as the Bible and the so-called Apocrypha. Many more were not included in the canon simply because they were historical texts, and not religious ones, or they were of doubtful origin, or they contained teachings that rightly belong in the Jewish religion.
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church uses the largest "canon" of writings .

What everyone else has said is also true. I just wanted to answer in a short, easy to read format.

 

[E.C.]

Oh what I would give to be given free reign to go digging through constantinople. Mind you, Uncials give me a serious headache whenever I try reading them, so would need some practice first... and a good supply of ibuprofin.

But your mention of muslim conquests leads into an interesting observation. If the earliest copies of the bible were destroyed as Islam teaches, it was probably by the Muslims themselves rather than early Christians. We're veritable packrats when it comes to old manuscripts.

Not so much packrats, more so preserving things needing preservation.


Like always making sure there are enough parachutes before flying an airplane (plus extras).

Greek. They are within the Eastern Orthodox church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the Armenian Orthodox Church, the Coptic Churches of Egypt. In short, they are held by the Orthodox.
The Vatican has many early copies. Much of these writings are included in what you know as the Bible and the so-called Apocrypha. Many more were not included in the canon simply because they were historical texts, and not religious ones, or they were of doubtful origin, or they contained teachings that rightly belong in the Jewish religion.
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church uses the largest "canon" of writings .

What everyone else has said is also true. I just wanted to answer in a short, easy to read format.

The Vatican most likely has Latin translations and probably dates to about the Medieval Era. It would surprise me if they had some texts dating the first three centuries.

What people fail to realize is how long Greek stayed the lingua franca of the Mediterranean.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Oh what I would give to be given free reign to go digging through constantinople. Mind you, Uncials give me a serious headache whenever I try reading them, so would need some practice first... and a good supply of ibuprofin.

But your mention of muslim conquests leads into an interesting observation. If the earliest copies of the bible were destroyed as Islam teaches, it was probably by the Muslims themselves rather than early Christians. We're veritable packrats when it comes to old manuscripts.

Excellent observation. The Muslims were notoriously free with their manuscripts. When it came time to assemble the Qu'ran from the surahs believed to have been written by Mohammed, they destroyed all of those that they didn't like, claiming that they were "Satanic verses" and that Satan had provoked Mohammed to write them (thus proving that Mohammed was a false prophet, a fact which, of course, they deny). Thus when Salmon Rushdie published his famous book, The Satanic Verses, it was a direct allusion to these destroyed surahs. This explains the fatwah (sentence of death) placed upon him by the imams.

 

[wmssid]

The MSS we have today are correct.

Jesus promised, "Heaven and Earth (Israel; AD 70) will pass away but my words will never pass away" - Mt 24.35.

Both Hebrew and Greek MSS -- when fake vowels are removed from Masoretic text -- have hundred year prophecies, and longer, and the fulfillment was documented by secular history.

Periods of prophecy, in Revelation, were fulfilled in every century.

Until 1948, the United States, and Canada, and Australia, and Great Britain believed these facts.

Since 1948, no one believes publicly.

wmssid

 

[plmarquette]

many were burned during 400 years of roman occupation / persecution ...Nero, Marcus Arrelius....etc.

.....Mark 16.16-20 is a good answer by those above
.....the fact that so many copies exist today in so many tribes and nations
of the words of Jesus...
.....that he hears and answers us.... he is real ...

 

[GodsGirlSajida]

I've always been led to believe from my Muslim friends that in Islam was and is a tolerant religion and thus woudl never have destroyed any scriptures.
Where can I find evidence to debate them?

 

[Anglian]

The oldest complete copy of the NT in existence is the Codex Sinaiticus. Until the nineteenth century it was where it had been since its creation in about 350 AD - the monastery of St. Catherine in Egypt. It is written in Greek, as all the earliest surviving manuscripts are, although there are those who say that there was a Hebrew version of Matthew's Gospel; this has not survived.

The codex was 'acquired' in 1844 by Constantine von Tischendorf, on behalf of Tsar Nicholas I. The British Library in London acquired a large chunk of it in 1933 when it bought most of the codex from Stalin for £100,000. There are still some fragments in Russia and in St. Catherine's, and you can find out more, and see the documents, here:
http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net/en/

The OT text is that of the Septuagint, which was the version used by the early Christians. The NT text includes the Epistle of Barnabas and The Shepherd of Hermas which were received by some Churches; it was only in AD 367, with St. Athanasius' festal letter, that we get the first complete NT canon that we now use.

The vast majority of the earliest manuscripts come from Egypt, and this is because the climate there is most conducive to their survival - as well as the fact that Christianity has been in Egypt almost from the beginning. Many documents were destroyed in the Roman persecutions, especially those in the reign of Diocletian. Many may well have been buried in the desert, but, as with the Nag Hammadi and the Dead Sea Scrolls, only accident is likely to recover them.

The standard Coptic history of the Patriarchs provides plenty of evidence of Muslims destroying sacred Christian texts.

I hope this is of help. Do look at the web link - it is marvellous to be able to see the earliest codex so clearly.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Jefell]

The MSS we have today are correct.

Jesus promised, "Heaven and Earth (Israel; AD 70) will pass away but my words will never pass away" - Mt 24.35.

Both Hebrew and Greek MSS -- when fake vowels are removed from Masoretic text -- have hundred year prophecies, and longer, and the fulfillment was documented by secular history.

Periods of prophecy, in Revelation, were fulfilled in every century.

Until 1948, the United States, and Canada, and Australia, and Great Britain believed these facts.

Since 1948, no one believes publicly.

wmssid

My FAITH is not missing.. you do not know my faith.. my Faith is unshakable, unbreakable, incorruptable and undeniable. I have moved mountains by my faith. I live and will die following my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I was asking, because I am interested in the history of my Father's Word and I know that there are many others with knowledge far beyond my own here. Thank you for your response and input. I do honestly appreciate it :0)

GOD BLESS.

With Love,
- Jefell

 

[prodromos]

Where are / what happened to the original writings scribed during the time of Jesus? Any validity to them being hidden / destroyed by Muhammad of Islam?

The Roman Empire spoke Greek at that time..
Jesus mainly spoke Aramaic ..

What language are the oldest writings regarding Jesus? Greek or Latin?

Physically, where are these writings?

If you read your bible every day you will find that after a few years it will be physically falling apart, and that is with modern paper produced today.

The papyrus and vellum (animal skins) did not have anything like the durability of modern paper, so if they were being regularly used (which they were) then they started to fall apart before too long. Copies would be made and copies made of those copies etc. which lead to the embarrassingly large number of biblical manuscripts compared to any other ancient writing.

The original writings no longer exist. They wore out, but their contents were preserved by the Church.

John

 

[bbbbbbb]

If you read your bible every day you will find that after a few years it will be physically falling apart, and that is with modern paper produced today.

The papyrus and vellum (animal skins) did not have anything like the durability of modern paper, so if they were being regularly used (which they were) then they started to fall apart before too long. Copies would be made and copies made of those copies etc. which lead to the embarrassingly large number of biblical manuscripts compared to any other ancient writing.

The original writings no longer exist. They wore out, but their contents were preserved by the Church.

John

Actually, you are correct that modern paper does not have the longevity of vellum or papyrus. The sad truth is that majority of modern paper is still made with an acidic process which causes the paper to yellow and to be come brittle within a century after production. Rag and acid-free modern papers have a much longer life span. Vellum is still superior to paper for longevity but it eventually does wear out. At present mylar is considered to be the superior material for longevity. It is used for architectural and egnineering drawings and is much too expensive for books.