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There is no logical argument to support ATHEISM

DogmaHunter

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The part where anyone would even think to describe their stance in such terms.

I'll give it a stab.......

Let's consider the claim of alien abductions.
There are hundreds, thousands even, of people alive today that you can go and talk to, who will claim to have been abducted by aliens and they really believe it. They believe it so much, they even pass lie detector tests.

However, I don't for a second believe their claims. And you probably don't either.
But.... can you disprove it? Can you demonstrate that aliens are NOT abducting humans and performing weird sex experiments on them?

Off course you can not. So you can not rationally make the opposite positive claim which says "there are no aliens to abduct people".

Either aliens abduct people or they don't. It's one or the other. But 2 claims are possible:
- aliens abduct people
- aliens do NOT abduct people

Now here's the kicker.... only the first claim is addressed.
Those thousands of claimed alien abductees are the ones making the claims. Those are the claims that are being discussed.
The one who disbelieves these claims, is only expressing a stance on that claim of the alien abductees. A position on a claim, is not a claim by itself.

Did that make sense to you?


I'm a strong agnostic, though a mystically inclined one who finds the case for theism much better than the case against it. I don't speak as an apologist here, but as an agnostic who is tired of seeing that position coopted and erased by atheists.

If you can be an agnostic theist, then why can't I be an agnostic atheist?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Great point. And when a child becomes too old to 'Believe' in Santa Claus it runs hand in hand with 'Knowledge' claims...the more mature knowledge that it is ridiculous that in 1 night Santa would have time to enter billions of houses and spread out presents, the knowledge that nobody they know has ever seen him, even friends who deceitfully stay up late, etc. So they have knowledge based reasons to dump their belief. And I also remain fuzzy on the desire to want to avoid the word agnostic as if it's Kryptonite?? I know some proud agnostics.

All that knowledge is indeed a good reason to stop believing the positive claim.
None of that knowledge, however, is capable of disproving santa.
At best, it makes santa very unlikely.
In other words: the factual positive claim "stanta does not exist", is technically just as unsupportable as the positive claim.

That is the point.

It's kind of a universal problem as well with negative claims of existance or events.



Ok as an admitted rookie to this battle between the semantics of 'Atheism', from me just reading in here let me ask this...it seems that it has been pointed out several times now that this modified definition of 'Atheism' originated by Anthony Flew in the 1970s, and that THIS was in fact the beginning of the 'Semantics Trickery.'

The only people here who are engaging in "semantic trickery" are the theists who keep insisting on telling us atheists what our views, beliefs and claims really are.

I don't get why people need to dwell on these semantics. What use does it have to argue about a label? Just about all atheists engaged in these threads are pretty unanimously telling you guys that they don't make the claim that no gods exist and that their atheism is only defined by answer "no" to the question "do you believe a god/the supernatural exists?". And that's it.

Wouldn't it be more productive/constructive to actually just accept this and actually have a meaningfull conversation in that context?

So let me simply ask this, do atheists in here dispute that? Do atheists in here claim that their current definition was held by people in 1965?

It doesn't matter. What matters is what the people you are talking to are actually saying. Not what a label supposedly meant 60 years ago.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Again, why should I or anyone else care what atheism meant in 1965? Unless you believe that words should never change meaning, then the only thing that matters is how the word is used now.



The point is, again, who cares? If you have an issue with the way the word is used now, let’s have it.

Here's the problem as I see it. Christians have an epistemology that is partially dependent on outside forces (i.e. God, in this case) to orchestrate for the potential believer additional information and/or relevance that is not typically available to the average, mortal man or woman. This has always been the epistemic claim for Christianity, and it is clearly laid out in the Bible.

But hold on, here comes the Enlightenment, and not only does Humanity start measuring all things by itself and its own reasoning, Christians also begin to fall in line with this overall appeal to having to prove this belief, that belief and whatever faith they might exude has to be demonstrated by means of "pure reason," whatever "pure reason" really is. So, now we have Christians running around with Enlightenment notions built into their formerly revelation dependent epistemologies, smacking others over the head as to the 'obviousness' of the Christian faith. [...and believe me when I say that I just Kant wrap my head around this kind of over assurance of belief ;)]

But hold the phone, now in the 2Oth-21st century, Skeptics and Atheists have made a move to further the overall epistemic quandry in which we all find ourselves, making it ultra difficult for those who might attempt to attain even a shred of religious faith, and they do this by not only defining "faith" as an epistemology (which it never was really before), BUT ALSO by further developing their self-promoted definitions of just what it is to be 'non-believing,' thus enabling themselves to epistemically bunker down and hole-up into an otherwise unreachable [and unbreachable] position. Because we ALL KNOW that the burden of proof ... is upon the Christian to demonstrate his or her faith (even though originally, faith was not an epistemology, and as I mentioned above, it used to be recognized that Christian belief requires an epistemic component IN ADDITION to whatever analyses we might apply to whatever evidence we do have available to us. Needlesss to say, all of this has had the effect of making the evidence become ....PRESTO!!! no evidence.)

So, forgive me if I seem to oscillate between having sympathy on one side of the epistemic equation where I understand that non-believers just don't feel they can believe, and then having irritation on the other side of the equation where I react against atheists when they attempt to apply the same epistemic constructs for the purpose of criticizing and even completely downing Christian faith.

And that's how I see it, Todd. :cool:

Oh, and one last thing. I think that when the smoke clears, and if I'm correct about the epistemic (evidentiary) misapplications made on both sides--by both modern atheists and a lot of modern Christians--then if we can recognize this, we can stop hemming and hawing at each other, stop pointing fingers at each other, stop implying that the other side is ALWAYS irrational, and otherwise stop trying to make the other side "cry uncle" on all social and political fronts.

2PhiloVoid
 
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quatona

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Here's the problem as I see it. Christians have an epistemology that is partially dependent on outside forces (i.e. God, in this case) to orchestrate for the potential believer additional information and/or relevance that is not typically available to the average, mortal man or woman. This has always been the epistemic claim for Christianity, and it is clearly laid out in the Bible.
Yes, that´s quite a problem when the subject whose existence is in doubt is at the same time the claimed "outside force" that your epistemology depends on. That this - in the attempt to rationally justify these beliefs - must lead to circular reasoning is obvious. So maybe you have lost your case already when starting to reason for the subject of your faith?
But hold the phone, now in the 2Oth-21st century, Skeptics and Atheists have made a move to further the overall epistemic quandry in which we all find ourselves, making it ultra difficult for those who might attempt to attain even a shred of religious faith, and they do this by not only defining "faith" as an epistemology (which it never was really before), BUT ALSO by further developing their self-promoted definitions of just what it is to be 'non-believing,' thus enabling themselves to epistemically bunker down and hole-up into an otherwise unreachable [and unbreachable] position.
Am I understanding you correctly here: You are insinuating that I pretend to hold a position that I don´t hold? (Because otherwise you´d just seem to be complaining about yourself having an affirmative position and me not having one, and the consequence that - if you want to convince me of your position - you would have to come up with something more than circular references.)
Because we ALL KNOW that the burden of proof ... is upon the Christian to demonstrate his or her faith (even though originally, faith was not an epistemology, and as I mentioned above, it used to be recognized that Christian belief requires an epistemic component IN ADDITION to whatever analyses we might apply to whatever evidence we do have available to us. Needlesss to say, all of this has had the effect of making the evidence become ....PRESTO!!! no evidence.)
I don´t know that we have a burden of proof or evidence for just believing something or having faith.
Actually, it seems to me that this burden arises not before we hear claims like "It takes more faith to believe in science than in God" and other such big-mouthed nonsense.
I´m not sure I understand why so many theists take so much pride in having faith in the existence of their Gods, and on the other hand try to make it look like they arrived at their faith by means of evidence/proof. Sounds like a contradiction to me.

So, forgive me if I seem to oscillate between having sympathy on one side of the epistemic equation where I understand that non-believers just don't feel they can believe, and then having irritation on the other side of the equation where the same epistemic constructs are applied for the purpose of criticizing and even downing Christian faith.
Yeah, it´s inconvenient that we can´t bring evidence or proof for matters of faith. I, however, think that that´s not a good reason to acquire paranoia. :)
 
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KCfromNC

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...thanks for the lesson on Philosophy, KC. I can see that you, too, will make a good philosopher. ;) (Because, that IS what you've just done here...a bit of philosophy.)

If you're going to call everything philosophy it kinda makes the term pointless.
 
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KCfromNC

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Or... now stay with me here... it could be the intellectually honest position to take when you don't have evidence that X is true, and you don't have evidence that X isn't true...

Or when you can't even get a consistent description of what X is supposed to be.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If you're going to call everything philosophy it kinda makes the term pointless.

...sorry, but everything in human thought that requires some form of evaluation....IS philosophy, or is open to philosophical scrutiny.
 
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KCfromNC

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Out of the following four fields, which one does not belong to Philosophy:

Epistemology, Metaphysics, Ethics/Values (Axiology), or Logic?​

And in doing science, which ones of the four mentioned above do you think you use?

Maybe ethics, depending on the situation. None of the math or logic courses I took were from the philosophy department, so that's obviously out. Science kinda sidesteps epistemology, rightfully recognizing that it hasn't really made any concrete conclusions about the field it is trying to investigate. And everyone knows that metaphysics doesn't even try so obviously a pragmatic field like science will ignore it.

How does this address my point that deriding people who are drawn to things which "work" isn't going to help improve the opinion of a field?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Maybe ethics, depending on the situation. None of the math or logic courses I took were from the philosophy department, so that's obviously out. Science kinda sidesteps epistemology, rightfully recognizing that it hasn't really made any concrete conclusions about the field it is trying to investigate. And everyone knows that metaphysics doesn't even try so obviously a pragmatic field like science will ignore it.

How does this address my point that deriding people who are drawn to things which "work" isn't going to help improve the opinion of a field?

Wrong. Do your homework on what constitutes the various Categories of Philosophy, and then come back and try your answer again ...
 
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KCfromNC

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Ok as an admitted rookie to this battle between the semantics of 'Atheism', from me just reading in here let me ask this...it seems that it has been pointed out several times now that this modified definition of 'Atheism' originated by Anthony Flew in the 1970s, and that THIS was in fact the beginning of the 'Semantics Trickery.'

Even if you could demonstrate this is true, how is accurately describing what one believes "trickery"?

So let me simply ask this, do atheists in here dispute that? Do atheists in here claim that their current definition was held by people in 1965?

I'll worry about it if I ever get hold of a time machine and have to explain what I don't believe in 1965.
 
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KCfromNC

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I said that the claim is that Anthony Flew reinvented the word in the 1970s. So I asked if the word did indeed have a different meaning in 1965. I would say that it's pretty straight forward where I'm going with this.

Not really. Even if the word atheist changed to mean "people who wear striped hats", it wouldn't somehow make people currently labeled as atheists go from claiming "don't believe in god" to "god certainly doesn't exist".
 
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KCfromNC

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So, forgive me if I seem to oscillate between having sympathy on one side of the epistemic equation where I understand that non-believers just don't feel they can believe, and then having irritation on the other side of the equation where I react against atheists when they attempt to apply the same epistemic constructs for the purpose of criticizing and even completely downing Christian faith.

Too bad philosophy has failed to figure out which epistemology is actually correct - if it did you could beat non-believers over the head with the obvious fact of a Christian approach to knowing stuff. But until it does, I don't see the point at getting annoyed that people have a different opinion about the situation than you. Kinda seems like getting upset about people who have a different favorite TV show.
 
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KCfromNC

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...sorry, but everything in human thought that requires some form of evaluation....IS philosophy, or is open to philosophical scrutiny.

Interesting. A fast food worker is doing philosophy when getting me my burger in addition to being a fast food worker. No wonder they're fighting for a higher minimum wage.
 
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KCfromNC

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Wrong. Do your homework on what constitutes the various Categories of Philosophy, and then come back and try your answer again ...
How does this address my point that deriding people who are drawn to things which "work" isn't going to help improve the opinion of a field?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Too bad philosophy has failed to figure out which epistemology is actually correct - if it did you could beat non-believers over the head with the obvious fact of a Christian approach to knowings stuff. But until it does, I don't see the point at getting annoyed that people have a different opinion about the situation than you.

...I don't get annoyed with people who 'simply' hold another view point than I do. If there is one thing that philosophy has contributed to my perceptions of the world, it is an appreciation that people DO have different points of view. What I get annoyed at is when those differences in thought begin to have teeth on a social or political level.

For instance, I get annoyed when Fundamentalist Christians face off against me and imply that I'm not a 'real' Christian and continue to pontificate on my supposed lack of faith because I don't "measure up."

I also get annoyed when skeptics not only bring their epistemic grievances to my door, but seem to do so not so much because they are grieved, but because they want to initiate and perpetuate a Religion-less Revolution, where faith becomes passe and religion is swept out of the way.
 
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How does this address my point that deriding people who are drawn to things which "work" isn't going to help improve the opinion of a field?

You've misunderstood my comment on the results of science. The implication of my comment is supposed to be that just because science does work in many ways, this does not mean epistemology involved with knowledge that can put a man on the moon, run your cell-phone, or cure a disease is directly applicable to all other aspects of existence. Science "works," but it "works" for those things for which its purpose is clear and its goals using 'Techne' are applicable. Religion isn't one of those things ...
 
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Interesting. A fast food worker is doing philosophy when getting me my burger in addition to being a fast food worker. No wonder they're fighting for a higher minimum wage.

...sure they are. A fast food worker has to decide if he will abide by the embedded ethics of his food-handler permit...and not spit in your salad or rub the patty between his buns before delivering that tasty, flame-broiled "Super Duper Burger." o_O

He's also doing a bit of minor epistemology in "knowing" if the meat really is 'cooked' thoroughly, or if that mayonaise really has been sitting out too long to serve to customers ...

He's also doing a bit of metaphysics in knowing what the ideal "Super Burger" really is so that when he makes your order, you're really getting one that looks just like it does in the picture advertised. (Funny...it never does, does it?)

He's also doing a bit of logic and math when he figures that those two hours he just put in while sweating over your french fries is worth $15.00.
 
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quatona

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You've misunderstood my comment on the results of science. The implication of my comment is supposed to be that just because science does work in many ways, this does not mean that the epistemology involved with knowledge that puts a man on the moon, runs your cell-phone, or cures a disease is directly applicable to all other aspects of existence. Science "works," but it "works" for those things for which its purpose is clear and its goals using 'Techne' are applicable. Religion isn't one of those things ...
Agreed.
So what are the unclear purposes of religion?
What is the applicable criterium - since it isn´t "it works"?
What would be an epistemological approach for matters of religion that doesn´t put the cart before the horse?
 
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KCfromNC

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Science "works," but it "works" for those things for which its purpose is clear and its goals using 'Techne' are applicable. Religion isn't one of those things ...
That's certainly one opinion. Any reason to think it accurately represents reality?
 
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