There is no hell.

MamaZ · Dec 22, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
Lets assume that you are correct. There is still this reply: Yahshua said to his disciples: How foolish of you to believe all that the prophets have said. That's because the prophets often speak in parables.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
If the dead know nothing, then how can they speak?

He was not rebuking them for believing in the Prophets but of being slow of heart.. You need to take the whole of what is being said instead of taking it and twisting it.

&Abel · Dec 23, 2008

just so we're clear...sheol is not hell...its basically the waiting room of the current dead...both the righteous and sinners are in sheol but are separated(righteous are resting in comfort)

the lake of fire which does not exist yet in this realm is true hell and it comes after judgement

apparently part of what makes sheol so terrifying for those who died without Jesus is the expectation of judgment and their portion of that lake

oh I can't find that quote you posted above Mike....is that really a quote from Jesus?

GuardianShua · Dec 23, 2008

MamaZ said:
He was not rebuking them for believing in the Prophets but of being slow of heart.. You need to take the whole of what is being said instead of taking it and twisting it.

Why would Yahshua say: How foolish of you to believe all that the prophets have said. Could it have been because of a misunderstanding?

wayseer · Dec 23, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
If the dead know nothing, then how can they speak?

From my experience dead people seem to have a lot to say.

GuardianShua · Dec 23, 2008

&Abel said:
just so we're clear...sheol is not hell...its basically the waiting room of the current dead...both the righteous and sinners are in sheol but are separated(righteous are resting in comfort)

the lake of fire which does not exist yet in this realm is true hell and it comes after judgement

apparently part of what makes sheol so terrifying for those who died without Jesus is the expectation of judgment and their portion of that lake

oh I can't find that quote you posted above Mike....is that really a quote from Jesus?

The word "SHEOL" means "GRAVE" in English. The word "GRAVE" is a TRANSLATION, and the word "HELL" is an INTERPRETATION.

Luke 24:25
He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

GuardianShua · Dec 23, 2008

wayseer said:
From my experience dead people seem to have a lot to say.

Parabolically speaking, they do.

&Abel · Dec 23, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
The word "SHEOL" means "GRAVE" in English. The word "GRAVE" is a TRANSLATION, and the word "HELL" is an INTERPRETATION.

Luke 24:25
He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

find out what slow of heart means and read this verse over very carefully

Mikecpking · Dec 23, 2008

Katholish said:
MichaelTheeArchAngel and Mikecpking,

We (I imagine many here would agree with me implicitly at least) have such a divergent understanding of what the soul is that talking about the existence of Hell of almost meaningless.

True, that the understanding of the soul is first explained in philosophical terms by the Greeks, Aristotle in particular but Plato as well, that does not make it wrong.

Good point, but the basic problem is we cannot read into the holy scriptures another definition contrary to the Hebrew writers of what 'soul' and 'spirit' is.

If you are using different terminology, that is one thing (I can't tell if you are saying that what I call soul you call spirit), but to disagree on the essential nature of man is a rather huge difference. Man is both material and spiritual (meaning immaterial). We can know that there is an immaterial part of man because man possesses immaterial knowledge which would not possibly exist in a purely material substance. Hence you claim the soul is material, I have to ask whether either of you think that there is an immaterial part of man if it is not the soul and what this would be, or if you deny any immateriality in man, if you also deny that knowledge is immaterial or if man can actually know anything?

The Hebrews had a completly different view of personhood. Even in death, the deads were not 'immaterial', but 'insubstantial' where death was regarded the weakest form of life.

Here is some defintions from the Hebrew perpective:

Nephesh - Psyche - Soul

The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.

Ruah - Pneuma - Spirit

This 'picture - window' into personhood highlights our unique relationship with God.'Ruah' has its roots in the 'wind' which emphasises both its powerful and yet subtle nature. 'Ruah' is used in a number of different contexts:-
for the wind in nature.
for the nature of God's being ['Spirit of God', 'Holy Spirit']; dynamic, overwhelming, at times completely dominating [Jg 6:34], the root of prophesying [ISam 10:5-6] and abnormal strength [Jg 14:6].
for demonic activity [ISam 16:14].
for the 'principle of life' [akin to 'nephesh' often used interchangeably]. It is the life force present everywhere; independent, universal, it does not die.
for the vital energy dwelling within each individual, that force which affects temperament.
Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.

Leb - Kardia - Heart

'Leb' is a 'window - word' that looks in at personhood in terms of deepest emotions and from the perspective of intellect and will. 'Leb', in some ways, draws together every spiritual process. It is'conscious spiritual activity'.
It was early recognised that emotions and intense feelings produce physical effects in the heart [slow, quick, intermittent pulse rates, sometimes strong pain]. So it has come to picture the epicentre of the human person as an emotional being. Other bodily organs have been drawn alongside to add other facets to this idea:-
 Kidneys: the unfathomable depths of an individual, centre of emotions that only God can search out and test [Jer 11:20; 12:2; Isa 29:13].
 Bowels: emotions that can be deeply agitated; seething fermenting, troubling [Job 30:27; Lam 1:20].
 Inwards-Belly: emphasising the unique character of human spiritual nature in contrast to the external world [Phil 3:19; Jn 7:38].
 Bones: the basic structural element in man; spiritually and emotionally as
well as physically [Ps 35:10; Pr 3:8], they suffer seismic shock in emotional distress [Jer 23:9].
The other very important emphasis of 'leb' is personhood in terms of their inner direction; the deliberate conscious activity of the will and the responsibility it brings.
What comes from an individuals heart is 'the distinct property of the whole person' making them responsible for it. The 'responsible will' is central to the biblical concept of the 'heart'. Making God's will our own requires a new heart [Ezk 36:26].
Paul in his writings uses 'kardia' with all the senses of the Hebrew 'leb', but enlarges it by the introduction of two other words that emphasis 'will' and ' responsibilities':-
 Mind [nous]: human intellectual capacity [Phil 4:7] which may be good or bad. It may be immoral, vain, corrupt defiled [Rm 1:28; Eph 4:17]. It contains God's law [Rm 7:23] and in a Christian is renewed transforming life [Rm 12:2], imparting the mind of Christ [ICor 2:16].
 Conscience [suneidessis]: human faculty for moral judgment. It can be defiled [ICor 8:7] or pure [ITim 3:9]. It is that consciousness of 'being right within one's heart' [Rm2:15].
So 'leb' is conscious spiritual activity, stressing the sense of responsibility.

Mikecpking · Dec 23, 2008

Part 2

Contrast : Nephesh, Ruah, Leb
It will be quite clear that 'nephesh', 'ruah', and 'leb' overlap one another at significant points.
The distinctions between 'nephesh' and 'leb' at the higher level of understanding is very difficult. They are often used interchangeably [cf Ex 6:9 with Jg 16:16; Ecc 7:8 with Job 6:11], and yet they are not the same. The distinction is found back at their roots.
The overlap between all three is to be expected when we remember each is considering the whole man from a slightly different angle. Their contrasting stresses may be seen as:-
• Nephesh : instinctive 'animal' activity.
• Leb : conscious spiritual activity.
• Ruah : personhood open to the influence of the nature of God.
'Nephesh' and 'leb' stand in contrast with 'ruah' between them. 'Nephesh' and 'ruah' stress the 'lower' and 'higher' levels of consciousness.
Basar - Sarx - Flesh
'Basar' is the 'window - word' that looks at 'the whole life substance of personhood organised in visible form'. It is common to both human and beast. As we have seen we do not have a body, we are a body. 'Basar' is 'nephesh' in its outward form, the same reality is involved, a person as a living being. It is the whole tangible form of a person controlled by the 'nephesh', [there are different Hebrew words for simply the muscular parts of the body and for a lifeless corpse]. The Hebrew scriptures do not have a word for 'the body' in the way we would understand that term [the whole]. 'Basar' is 'flesh', though [as we shall see] the New Testament term 'body' is rooted back into it.
The Bible places high value on a person's physical aspect, 'basar' affirms our physical existence. It destroys the Greek idea, that has so often polluted Christian thinking, that 'the flesh' is a prison cell, the enemy of the spirit, which incarcerates the 'real self in matter.
However the Bible also affirms that the physical alone does not give complete meaning to personhood. 'Flesh' is simply the whole person from one particular perspective:-
• it is personhood in corporeal form: often used as a personal pronoun [2Cor 5:5; Eph 5:28]; notice how 'flesh', 'longs after God' [Ps 63:1], 'rejoices in God' [Ps 84:2].
• it is personhood in external and visible in contrast to internal and spiritual [Gal 4:13-14; 2Cor 12:7].
• it is personhood in earthly solidarity with earthly existence [Phil 1:24; Gal 2:20]. It is God's chosen will for us to be part of this world, our God-given sphere of life. It is neutral. John stresses Jesus came 'in the flesh' [Jn 1:14; Un 4:2].
• it is personhood in contrast to God: human as opposed to divine. It is 'mere mortals' in their weakness, their impotence, their mortality, temporary, perishable; in contrast to the power and eternal nature of God.
• it is personhood in opposition to God; flesh has been exploited by the rebellious forces of 'this age' and has fallen under sin and death [Rm 8:12; Gal 5:13]. It is a person living for this world. Their God-given place has taken over as the principle of his life and conduct [humanism]. An individual in their self-sufficiency. For this reason flesh will neither 'glory before God' [ICor 1:29], nor 'inherit the kingdom' [ICor 15:50]. In this sense 'being in the flesh' is incompatible with being a Christian [Rm 8:8]; not because it is evil but because it distorts a person's relationship with God.
'Flesh' is the whole person in visible form and it is good. Dependent life which requires a physical organism to sustain it. It stresses human impotence and the fact that ultimately we are wholly perishable. There is no promise of resurrection for the 'flesh'.
Basar - Soma - Body
The word 'body' is unique as a 'picture - window' into the whole person. It is a word that takes on particular significance in the New Testament vocabulary of Paul. The word 'flesh' [ ['sarx'] properly translates the Hebrew 'basar'. The word 'body' ['soma'] must find its origin in the same Hebrew root, but it develops quite differently. Paul speaks of 'the body of the flesh' [Col 2:11]; this makes a complete identity between 'body' and 'flesh'. It is significant that the Greeks stressed the contrast between 'body' and 'soul', while Paul draws the contrast between 'body' and 'flesh'.
The word 'body' carries the following emphases:-
• it is the external presence of the whole person. It is what an individual has that makes their earthly life possible [Gal 6:17; 2Cor 10:10]. In as much as it is the sum of sensual functions and physical appetites, it will pass away. Only when the 'body' has emphasised everything in 'flesh' does it diverge from it.
• it is personhood in opposition to God. The 'body' is identified with 'flesh' in the power of sin and corruption [Rm 6:6] humiliation [Rm 7:24] dishonour [ICor 15:43] and lust [Rm 6:12]. It is because sin is not just 'fleshly' but a reality of the whole person that it is essential that redemption be accomplished as a bodily event.
• it is what personhood is. The whole person is an expression of the very core of their being. Hence fornication is a sin against the body [ICor 6:18]. It is the 'body' that is the temple of the Holy Spirit [ICor 6:19-20].
• it is personhood made for God. It emphasised the strength of human creativity [ICor 6:13-20]. In contrast to 'flesh' it is not merely the external as opposed to the spiritual. It is not merely the human as opposed to the divine.
• it is personhood in solidarity. 'Body' stresses that which binds one individual to another. It contrasts the Greek idea which saw the body as the boundary that separated one person from all others. The 'body' never stresses the individual [singular or plural are not significant], it is social. It emphasises the solidarity of the human race [Heb 13:3]. Biblically a person's individuality is found only in their relationship before God [Jer 31:29-30]. It is in the vertical direction that biblical individualism is seen.
• it is the whole person destined for God. 'Body' stresses an individual's 'goal', 'destination', and 'end' in God, rather than their origins; 'the body is for the Lord' [ICor 6:13]. Only the resurrection reveals a person's true destiny, and only the 'body' carries an individual into their resurrection, and that as part of the 'Body of Christ'. Before the body is raised it is essential that it dies first [Jn 12:24; ICor 15:36]. 'Flesh' must be replaced by a 'resurrection body'.
Resurrection body
• Focus
Death brings visible physical destruction to the human body. If personhood is a 'whole' a 'unity', how can there be life beyond this point? This is the moment when for the Christian the distinction between 'flesh' and 'body' becomes critical. To focus on death as the crisis point for personhood is 'humanist', it distorts the biblical perspective. For the Christian the hope of resurrection of the body is rooted in the reality of their being part of the eschatological community which is one with the resurrection Body of Christ. Nowhere is the 'resurrection of the body' to do with the moment of death. Neither is the modern obsession 'the survival of the individual' a biblical emphasis. Rather the Bible speaks in 'corporate' and 'social' terms which envelope the individual. Two key passages for our discussion are; ICorinthians 15:35-58; and 2Corinthians 4:16-5:10. The focus points for Christian thinking on the resurrection body are 'baptism' and the 'Parousia'.
• Promise
The corner stone of the hope of the 'resurrection of the body' is the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ [Mt 28:6]. Upon this the promises are based:-
• 'whoever lives and believes in me shall never die' [Jn 11:25].
• 'He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies' [Rm8:ll].
• 'He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also' [2Cor 4:14].
• 'God is our certainty, guaranteeing the promise by his Spirit' [2Cor 5:5].
• Baptism
This is the point at which we become part of the resurrection body of Christ; the corporate Christ who will one day be the only one. Our survival 'present' and 'future' does not depend simply upon our 'body' but on this unique relationship with God through the risen Christ.
From baptism onwards we begin to be inwardly renewed [2Cor 4:16] Christ being formed within us [Gal 4:19] transformed into his image [2Cor 3:18]. Flesh is decaying but the individual as 'body' is being continually transformed [Rm 12:2]. Resurrection begins at
'spiritual birth' [Jn 3:3,5]; future life is a development of present spiritual life [Jn 6:40], a sequence in the life already possessed, a life which passes through death untouched [Jn 11:25].
Being part of the Body of Christ releases within us 'the powers of the age to come' [2Cor 5:17]. The present indwelling of the Spirit is the link with our resurrection bodies, full manifestation is yet to come [Col 3:4]. The 'heavenly body' is the result of sowing in corruption, dishonour and weakness now [2Cor 5:17; ICor. 15:42-45].
There is a tension between present experience and future hope. The body of Christ is a 'suffering body' as well as a resurrection body [Phil 3:10-11]; we groan in longing [2Cor 5:2]. The 'resurrection body' cannot be complete until the 'Parousia' when Christ is 'all in all' [Eph 1:23].
• Parousia
The final change will take place 'in a moment' [ICor 15:52]. As the 'old' falls away it will be seen that in Christ all things are become new [2Cor 5:17]. The 'Parousia' will not be an entirely 'magical moment' quite unrelated to the present.
ICorinthians 15 appears to be stressing 'resurrection' in 'individual' terms but the language must to be understood corporately to get the full biblical force.
There are many perplexing questions about the nature of the resurrection body at the 'Parousia'. They remain unanswered. It is a mystery. What is raised? What is preserved and purified through resurrection? To what extent will the resurrection body be 'physical'? We cannot say [Un 3:2-3]. Just as a 'plant' is different from its 'seed' and yet there is 'continuity' between the two, so it will be for us [ICor 15:37-38]. The body will fulfil its essence. However, it will only inherit if it is radically changed [ICor 15:51]. Sin is done away with [Rm 6:6]. The body is redeemed and fashioned anew [Rm 8:23]. The natural body is transformed into the 'spiritual' body [ICor 15:44].
When Paul wrote 2Corinthians 4 and 5, and ICorinthians 15 he clearly expected that he would be alive at the 'Parousia1 :-
• ICor. 15:52 : 'The dead will be raised ... we shall be changed'.
• 2Cor. 5:4 : 'Not that we would be unclothed, but... further clothed'.
This leads to the question, "What is the position of those who die before the 'Parousia'?"
• Interim
This is a very hard question to answer. In Hebrew thinking the 'dead' were not 'nephesh' but 'rephaim' ['shadows', 'the weak' Isa 14:10]. They are 'insubstantial' but not 'immaterial', death being 'the weakest form of life' not extinction. Their habitation was 'sheol', a state of twilight existence [cf Job 3:17-19]. There is this sense of suspended animation.

MARK777 · Dec 23, 2008

Mikecpking said:
Here is some defintions from the Hebrew perpective:

Thanks for this info, it is very interesting.

itisdeliciouscake · Dec 23, 2008

so.... what about the lake of fire?

Gary51 · Dec 23, 2008

itisdeliciouscake said:
so.... what about the lake of fire?

A place prepaired for the devil and his angels, and where those who will not receive the gift of eternal life will be cast, to face the second death.

Der Alte · Dec 23, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
[SIZE=-1]Lets assume that you are correct. There is still this reply: Yahshua said to his disciples: How foolish of you to believe all that the prophets have said. That's because the prophets often speak in parables.[/SIZE]
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
[SIZE=-1]If the dead know nothing, then how can they speak?[/SIZE]

It would help if you would actually read my posts. I addressed all this in the same post you are replying to here.

Der Alter said:
You are not getting it. The other kings were in sheol, and they rose up, and spoke when the king of Babylon joined them. You repeating your assumptions/presuppositions over and over does not make them more valid.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

You are ignoring the explanation I posted, the same word means a proverb, byword, and well known saying. Israel became a proverb, to other nations, but they were very real.

There is no such name as Yahshuah. All known manuscripts of the N.T. have the transliteration of Yeshua, even when spoken by Jesus. This is another assumption/presuppositions you insist on hanging onto.

Jesus was not criticizing the disciples for believing the prophets, but for not believing them. Read the next verse, Jesus was to die just as the prophets had foretold but the disciples refused to believe it.

Luk 24:25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Did not the Christ[2] have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"

This is a favorite of antis and they always quote it out-of-context. This does NOT refer to the state of the dead in the grave but that they are no longer part of what happens in this life, "under the sun."

Ecc 9:3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.
Ecc 9:4 Anyone who is among the living has hope [2] -even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

GuardianShua · Dec 23, 2008

Gary51 said:
A place prepaired for the devil and his angels, and where those who will not receive the gift of eternal life will be cast, to face the second death.

itisdeliciouscake said:
so.... what about the lake of fire?

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (The Grave) were thrown into the lake of fire (Judgment). The lake of fire (Judgment) is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarstheir place will be in the fiery (Judgment) lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

GuardianShua · Dec 23, 2008

Der Alter said:
It would help if you would actually read my posts. I addressed all this in the same post you are replying to here.

I have read your post, and I have answered you. What is the point that you are trying to make. You can believe what ever you want Der Alter. If you want to believe that Yahwah will torture living being for all eternity with out mercy, then that is your right as a being with free will.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 23, 2008

Gary51 said:
A place prepaired for the devil and his angels, and where those who will not receive the gift of eternal life will be cast, to face the second death.

Hi Gary. What do you and others think about that Great City in Revelation signifying the "LOF"? I believe it could be sybmolizing the OC in some ways. Still working on this.

Reve 19:20 and is arrested the beast and with *it the false prophet, the one doing the signs in view of it in which has deceived the ones getting the mark of the beast and the ones worshipping to the image of it. Living were casted the two into the Lake of the Fire of the one burning in sulphur.

Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one-deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where-are the wild-beast and the false-prophet, and they shall be being tormented day and night into the Ages of the Ages.

Reve 19:3 and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a chasm great hath been established so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying

Der Alte · Dec 23, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
I[SIZE=-1] have read your post, and I have answered you. What is the point that you are trying to make. You can believe what ever you want Der Alter. If you want to believe that Yahwah will torture living being for all eternity with out mercy, then that is your right as a being with free will.[/SIZE]

If you read my post you gave no indication of having done so. You did NOT respond to all the points. Although I answered all your previous points, you overlooked or ignored some of my replies, and asked these two questions again.

mtaa said:
Lets assume that you are correct. [SIZE=-1]There is still this reply: Yahshua said to his disciples: How foolish of you to believe all that the prophets have said. That's because the prophets often speak in parables.[/SIZE][Misquoted and ignores the following verse!]
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
[SIZE=-1]If the dead know nothing, then how can they speak?[/SIZE][Out-of-context, ignores several verses!]

And once again you have ignored my response and simply repeat your assumptions/presuppositions.

GuardianShua · Dec 23, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi Gary. What do you and others think about that Great City in Revelation signifying the "LOF"? I believe it could be sybmolizing the OC in some ways. Still working on this.

Reve 19:20 and is arrested the beast and with *it the false prophet, the one doing the signs in view of it in which has deceived the ones getting the mark of the beast and the ones worshipping to the image of it. Living were casted the two into the Lake of the Fire of the one burning in sulphur.

Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one-deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where-are the wild-beast and the false-prophet, and they shall be being tormented day and night into the Ages of the Ages.

Reve 19:3 and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a chasm great hath been established so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying

Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus parable
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,(In The Grave) where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

GuardianShua · Dec 23, 2008

Der Alter said:
If you read my post you gave no indication of having done so. You did NOT respond to all the points. Although I answered all your previous points, you overlooked or ignored some of my replies, and asked these two questions again.

And once again you have ignored my response and simply repeat your assumptions/presuppositions.

For some reason we are not on the same page. So lets just call it quits.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 23, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
For some reason we are not on the same page. So lets just call it quits.

It is not very often everyone on GT is on the same page
Coincidentally that greek word for lake is only used in Luke and Revelation and is pretty close to the word for "famine"....Luke seems to follow Revelation even more than the other 3 Gospels it seems.....

Lake mentioned 11 times. 5 times in Luke [Luke 5:1,2 8:22,23,33] 6 times in Revelation

Matt 24:7 "For shall be being roused nation upon nation, and kingdom upon kingdom. And shall be famines/limoi <3042>, pestilences, and quakes according to places. [Mark 13:8, Luke 21:11]

Luke 5:1 It became yet, in the of the throng to be nearing to Him to be hearing the word of the God, and He was standing beside the Lake/limnhn <3041> gennh-saret <1082>, [Matt 14:34, Mark 6:53]

Reve 19:20 and is arrested the Beast and with it the False Prophet, living were cast the two into the Lake of the Fire of the one burning in sulphur.
Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one-deceiving them, was cast into the Lake/limnhn <3041> of the fire and of sulfur, [Reve 21:8]

Reve 18:8 by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine/limoV <3042>, and in fire She shall be being burned, that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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