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What is the point of eternal exile if the person can't experience it because they're gone?
Everything the bible says points to eternal damnation, eternal separation...these mean nothing if the person can't experience it.
You guys are ignoring key verses that speaks of this in your efforts to try to make God look like something he's not thinking that will fill the pews.
"Preacherswife 2004. I'm sure Jesus is real gosh darn proud of you
Your words are a ephemism for a common term taking God's name in vain. I wouldn't do that, but then that's just me.
Yes, it amazing to think that most Christians believe that, while at the same time calling God is all loving. One guy even told me that God roasts people for eternity to glorify Himself.Thanks for posting this, it's all really facinating.
I was just talking yesterday with someone about what's popularly believed and taught about hell...
usually involving conscious agonising torment, which is eternal and experienced second by second... minute by minute............ thousand year by thousand year............ MILLION YEAR BY MILLION YEAR.............
come on now....
anyway, thanks for posting this... I'm still exploring this whole subject.
Gehanna Valley
You have a large mix of things here. Don't forget that the bible is full of parables; or that the word sheol means grave in Hebrew, not Hell.Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (
Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G[/SIZE][/FONT]
You have a large mix of things here. Don't forget that the bible is full of parables; or that the word sheol means grave in Hebrew, not Hell.
Der Alter said:I am aware of the meaning of sheol But there are verses in the O.T. where it means something more than grave. Can punishing a child keep him out of the grave?
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell [sheol].
There is a lot of moving, shaking, and talking in this grave.
You quoted one sentence from my post and did NOT even address it, let alone anything else. I don't have "a large mix" of anything. I quoted an encyclopedia article written by Jewish scholars, discussing what the Bible teaches about Gehenna.
Can punishing a child keep him out of that place that you think is more than the grave?
Yes, and there is more. Fir trees spoke, and so did the cedars of Lebanon. They said: "Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us."
Isa. 14: 3. And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4. That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5. The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11. Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
You have a large mix of things here. Don't forget that the bible is full of parables; or that the word sheol means grave in Hebrew, not Hell.
Herr der Alter,
I trust you are aware of the various strains of thought and belief among Jewish rabbis and scholars, including, even, atheism! In Christ's day, as in the inter-testamental period, there were a number of strains of belief in the Jewish community, including Hellenistic Judaism. One might easily select Jewish 'scholars' or 'rabbis' whose teachings reflect one's chosen beliefs.
A good article which touches on this topic may be found in Kittel. Take a look at his article on psuxh. There is good treatment of the several Jewish strains of thought, as well as the OT position, and the NT teachings from Jesus through James--all of which are consistent with each other, but NOT with some of the Jewish beliefs!
Cheers
The following words by George Hawtin are most challenging: "The established visible Church has preached its multiplied sermons seeking to prove its tradition that the vast majority of God's human creation will be LOST, finally, irrevocably, and eternally, and not only will they be lost to God forever and ever, but they will be given up to the most sadistic, inhuman, ungodly torments that could be devised by the vilest fiends. According to the tradition of the Church this hellish torment is to fall upon all who do not believe. It matters not a whit whether they had opportunity to believe or not. It matters not at all if they were born in the darkest jungles of Africa, the swamps of Borneo, or the deserts of India or China. The fact that they never heard there was a God will be no excuse whatever. The fact that they never heard that God had a Son will not impede their dreadful destruction. Heathen who never heard that God had a Son are, according to this teaching, faced with the same dreadful doom as men who heard the Gospel from their birth and yet rejected it.
To add to the stupidity of their teaching they make pitiful attempts to prove that this is the justice of God and that God is manifesting His love in the punishment of sin. The doctrine of eternal punishment is based on a literal interpretation of some of the metaphors of Scripture, to the complete neglect of many other Scriptures. No doctrine has ever been propounded with more confidence and greater bitterness nor with a grossness and coarseness more hideous and repugnant, and, in the face of the love and kindness of God, more inconceivable and incredible" -end quote.
Der Alter said:How does this answer my post?
Did the king of Babylon die, was he buried, did the worms cover his body?
We can recognize that vs. 8 is a figure of speech, anthropomorphism. Attributing human characteristics to something inanimate.
As for the inhabitants of sheol. They were men. They died and were buried. Men can move, speak, etc. So how much of what is written can we dismiss as figure of speech, relying solely on O.T. scripture, not your assumptions/presuppositions?
While this passage does say "proverb" that does NOT necessarily mean not true. Israel is said to be a "proverb" in 1 King 9:7, Ezek 18:2.
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