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There is no hell.
- Thread starter GuardianShua
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See my affliction from those (V)who hate me,
You who (W)lift me up from the gates of death,
14That I may tell of (X)all Your praises,
That in the gates of the daughter of Zion
I may (Y)rejoice in Your salvation.
15The nations have sunk down (Z)in the pit which they have made;
In the (AA)net which they hid, their own foot has been caught.
16The LORD has (AB)made Himself known;
He has (AC)executed judgment.
In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared. Higgaion Selah.
17The wicked will (AD)return to Sheol,
Even all the nations who (AE)forget God.
18For the (AF)needy will not always be forgotten,
Nor the (AG)hope of the afflicted perish forever.
19(AH)Arise, O LORD, do not let man prevail;
Let the nations be (AI)judged before You.
20Put them (AJ)in fear, O LORD;
Let the nations know that they are (AK)but men. Selah.
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Why do you assume that the lake of fire, etc. is spiritual? I call this the SPAM-Fig argument. Many people, when scripture as written contradicts what they want to believe, they automatically say it is symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative. There is a maxim about interpreting scripture, if the plain sense, makes good sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense. If you have scriptural, lexical, grammatical, or historical evidence that this is figurative, etc., please present it.
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- Aug 21, 2003
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The person that Jesus was speaking of in hades, was being tormented in flames, he begged for water. Father Abraham said that nobody could come from that place to him, nor could they go from where Abraham and Lazarus were to the place where the dead man was. As I recall both Abraham and Lazarus, were also dead.
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27"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will (BQ)sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast. 28"As I have (BR)watched over them to (BS)pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to (BT)build and to plant," declares the LORD.
29"In those days they will not say again,
'(BU)The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children's teeth are set on edge.'
30"But (BV)everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
31"(BW)Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a (BX)new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32not like the (BY)covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I (BZ)took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My (CA)covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33"But (CB)this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "(CC)I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and (CD)I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34"They will (CE)not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all (CF)know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will (CG)forgive their iniquity, and their (CH)sin I will remember no more."
29"In those days they will not say again,
'(BU)The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children's teeth are set on edge.'
30"But (BV)everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
31"(BW)Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a (BX)new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32not like the (BY)covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I (BZ)took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My (CA)covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33"But (CB)this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "(CC)I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and (CD)I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34"They will (CE)not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all (CF)know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will (CG)forgive their iniquity, and their (CH)sin I will remember no more."
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I haven't been able to find specific information yet...it could be referring to angels, or even the spirits of both death(spirit of life ceasing) and hades(spirit of spirits awaiting resurrection)
I found this in 1 Enoch(I think you agree with me that this is genuine scripture) and I believe it relates to this subject(everyone involved in this thread should read Enoch) it has probably the most detailed account of hell, sheol and judgement
1
There mine eyes saw a deep valley with open mouths, and all who dwell on the earth and sea and islands shall bring to him gifts and presents and tokens of homage, but that deep valley shall not become full.
2
And their hands commit lawless deeds,
And the sinners devour all whom they lawlessly oppress:
Yet the sinners shall be destroyed before the face of the Lord of Spirits,
And they shall be banished from off the face of His earth,
And they shall perish for ever and ever.
3
For I saw all the angels of punishment abiding (there) and preparing all the instruments of Satan. 4
And I asked the angel of peace who went with me: 'For whom are they preparing these Instruments?' 5
And he said unto me: 'They prepare these for the kings and the mighty of this earth, that they may thereby be destroyed. 6
And after this the Righteous and Elect One shall cause the house of his congregation to appear: henceforth they shall be no more hindered in the name of the Lord of Spirits.
7
And these mountains shall not stand as the earth before his righteousness,
But the hills shall be as a fountain of water,
And the righteous shall have rest from the oppression of sinners.' 54
1
And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning 2
fire. And they brought the kings and the mighty, and began to cast them into this deep valley. 3
And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. 4
And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: 'For whom are these chains being prepared?' And he said unto me: 'These are being prepared for the hosts of Azâzêl, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6
And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.'
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/thebookofenoch.htm
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this is also from 1 Enoch
"And after that my grandfather Enoch gave me the teaching of all the secrets in the book in the Parables which had been given to him, and he put them together for me in the words of the book 2
of the Parables. And on that day Michael answered Raphael and said: 'The power of the spirit transports and makes me to tremble because of the severity of the judgement of the secrets, the judgement of the angels: who can endure the severe judgement which has been executed, and before 3
which they melt away?' And Michael answered again, and said to Raphael: 'Who is he whose heart is not softened concerning it, and whose reins are not troubled by this word of judgement 4
(that) has gone forth upon them because of those who have thus led them out?' And it came to pass when he stood before the Lord of Spirits, Michael said thus to Raphael: 'I will not take their part under the eye of the Lord; for the Lord of Spirits has been angry with them because they do 5
as if they were the Lord. Therefore all that is hidden shall come upon them for ever and ever; for neither angel nor man shall have his portion (in it), but alone they have received their judgement for ever and ever."
oh btw...the jews were well acquainted with this book and used it as scripture(early christians did as well) its also quoted in Jude
"And after that my grandfather Enoch gave me the teaching of all the secrets in the book in the Parables which had been given to him, and he put them together for me in the words of the book 2
of the Parables. And on that day Michael answered Raphael and said: 'The power of the spirit transports and makes me to tremble because of the severity of the judgement of the secrets, the judgement of the angels: who can endure the severe judgement which has been executed, and before 3
which they melt away?' And Michael answered again, and said to Raphael: 'Who is he whose heart is not softened concerning it, and whose reins are not troubled by this word of judgement 4
(that) has gone forth upon them because of those who have thus led them out?' And it came to pass when he stood before the Lord of Spirits, Michael said thus to Raphael: 'I will not take their part under the eye of the Lord; for the Lord of Spirits has been angry with them because they do 5
as if they were the Lord. Therefore all that is hidden shall come upon them for ever and ever; for neither angel nor man shall have his portion (in it), but alone they have received their judgement for ever and ever."
oh btw...the jews were well acquainted with this book and used it as scripture(early christians did as well) its also quoted in Jude
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We'll all know about the existence of Hell soon enough.
Yes!!!
You guys must think that I am just voicing my opinion. Let me say it again: The word "Sheol" TRANSLATED into English is the word "Grave." The word "Hell is an INTERPRETATION. And that is a FACT. If the soul (body and spirit) that sins dies, then how is it that there is life in hell?
Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thingto kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
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how many times do I have to say it:
sheol is NOT hell
sheol is the abode of the dead at this current time that is somehow spiritually connected to the earth
sinners and righteous alike dwell awaiting resurrection
the lake of fire is "hell"
sheol is NOT hell
sheol is the abode of the dead at this current time that is somehow spiritually connected to the earth
sinners and righteous alike dwell awaiting resurrection
the lake of fire is "hell"
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from 1 Enoch:
XXII. Sheol or the Underworld.
22
1
And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock.
2
And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.
3
Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should
4
assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit,
5
and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was
6
with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven?'
7
And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'
8
The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?'
9
And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of
10
water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their
11
lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There
12
He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days
13
of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.'
14
The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
XXII. Sheol or the Underworld.
22
1
And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock.
2
And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.
3
Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should
4
assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit,
5
and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was
6
with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven?'
7
And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'
8
The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?'
9
And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of
10
water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their
11
lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There
12
He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days
13
of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.'
14
The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
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Hell is a concept perceived by men. It is not part of the original teaching of Judaism. The Hebrew word Sheol translated into English is "Grave."There is no hell.
...prove it.
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from 2 esdras(4 ezra)
[76] He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not be associated with those who have shown scorn, nor number yourself among those who are tormented.
[77] For you have a treasure of works laid up with the Most High; but it will not be shown to you until the last times.
[78] Now, concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone forth from the Most High that a man shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High.
[79] And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his law, and who have hated those who fear God --
[80] such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad, in seven ways.
[81] The first way, because they have scorned the law of the Most High.
[82] The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance that they may live.
[83] The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High.
[84] The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days.
[85] The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet.
[86] The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will pass over into torments.
[87] The seventh way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the Most High before whom they sinned while they were alive, and before whom they are to be judged in the last times.
[88] "Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body.
[89] During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour, that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver perfectly.
[90] Therefore this is the teaching concerning them:
[91] First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders.
[92] The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought which was formed with them, that it might not lead them astray from life into death.
[93] The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander, and the punishment that awaits them.
[94] The third order, they see the witness which he who formed them bears concerning them, that while they were alive they kept the law which was given them in trust.
[95] The fourth order, they understand the rest which they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory which awaits them in the last days.
[96] The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible, and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty which they are to receive and enjoy in immortality.
[97] The sixth order, when it is shown to them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on.
[98] The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.
[99] This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the aforesaid are the ways of torment which those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter."
[100] I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?"
[101] He said to me, "They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations."
[76] He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not be associated with those who have shown scorn, nor number yourself among those who are tormented.
[77] For you have a treasure of works laid up with the Most High; but it will not be shown to you until the last times.
[78] Now, concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone forth from the Most High that a man shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High.
[79] And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his law, and who have hated those who fear God --
[80] such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad, in seven ways.
[81] The first way, because they have scorned the law of the Most High.
[82] The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance that they may live.
[83] The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High.
[84] The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days.
[85] The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet.
[86] The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will pass over into torments.
[87] The seventh way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the Most High before whom they sinned while they were alive, and before whom they are to be judged in the last times.
[88] "Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body.
[89] During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour, that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver perfectly.
[90] Therefore this is the teaching concerning them:
[91] First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders.
[92] The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought which was formed with them, that it might not lead them astray from life into death.
[93] The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander, and the punishment that awaits them.
[94] The third order, they see the witness which he who formed them bears concerning them, that while they were alive they kept the law which was given them in trust.
[95] The fourth order, they understand the rest which they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory which awaits them in the last days.
[96] The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible, and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty which they are to receive and enjoy in immortality.
[97] The sixth order, when it is shown to them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on.
[98] The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.
[99] This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the aforesaid are the ways of torment which those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter."
[100] I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?"
[101] He said to me, "They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations."
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1 Enoch is probably the first scripture that ever existed and the jews were well aware of it and used it(early christians as well)
The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch[1]) is a pseudepigraphic work ascribed to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah and son of Jared (Genesis 5:18).
While this book today is non-canonical in most Christian Churches, it was quoted as a prophetic text in the New Testament (Letter of Jude with also a probable reference in I Peter 3:19,20 to Enoch 6-36, especially 21, 6; 2 Enoch 7:1-5) and by many of the early Church Fathers. It is quoted as Scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas.[2] The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical.
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Why would Yahshua give his key (power and authority) to Peter, for which the Roman Catholic Church says they are successor to that key? I find it unlikly that Yahshua would turn his key over to Peter. That sentence line in Matt 16:19. contradicts other scripture.
Isaiah 22:22
I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Revelation 3:7
"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
Most likely this is how it should read: Matthew 16:17. And Yahshua answered him, saying, you are blessed Simon Bar Jonah; for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18. And I also call you Peter, but upon that Rock you will build my church; and the gateways to the grave will not prevent it.
1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
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