There is no Hell!

Ben12 said:

I am not Mormon as you all know; but that does not mean everything the Mormons believe is false; with that being said.

If we are not children (sons) of God; then what are we? (Who are the morning stars; note plural. Jesus was called the Bright and morning star. (not the Book of Mormon); that would be my answer Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I understand this does not fit a lot of old wine skins; but there is something here.

Son’s of God mentioned eleven times in the Bible without hardly digging past all the bad interpretations. You would have to do a pretty deep and lengthy study on the word Elohim; which I admit would be deep and fascinating. Sons of Elohim; son’s of God; yes that is what the scripture is saying; note Job 1:6.

Look a little deeper at Ps. 82 and notice how the word Elohim was used with both a capital G and lower case; same word same meaning both Strong’s 430 and this has happen all thought out the KJV and who know what other translation.

Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.



Son: Heb. OT:1121

ben (bane); from OT:1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., [like OT:1, OT:251, etc.]):

God:

OT:430

elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:

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Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler."

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Nadiine said:

I think something should be noted and made very clear here.
The Bible writings are directly inspired by the Holy Spirit to each writer. Their wording in the verses are purposeful - they gave pinpointed prophecies which I doubt they even realized that were pointing right to Christ and what would be fulfilled; they were just being LED to write these very things supernaturally. (things they couldn't possibly know yet).

[We can't very well claim that "because the OT writers didn't realize they were prophecies of Christ at that time - or even by the disciples upon seeing Jesus fulfilling them that THEY AREN'T OT PROPHECIES OF JESUS AT ALL"... Just like we can't claim that "some people in the church didn't grasp that Jesus was God yet, so..... JESUS THEREFORE CANNOT BE GOD, it's pagan heresy".
THE WORDING IS ALL THERE AND DIRECTLY TEACHES HE IS GOD and that the 3 are the One True God. Further, the early Christian churches DID embrace it as truth upon finding it. Creeds were even demanded to keep nontrinitarian heresies from infiltrating the churches].

I think it's important to remember that in the OT they didn't know about all the details we know today by the NT writings when Christ revealed them to the Disciples. BUT NOW WE HAVE THE FULL MYSTERY REVEALED TO US.

That's why I believe in earlier times, they didn't grasp the Trinity early on -- but the Trinity and Deity of Christ are directly displayed in and through the writings but still needed to be fully put together by the readers later.
My belief is that the actual identity of God (Christ is Deity/Trinity) are A HIDDEN MYSTERY that is not overtly shown openly, yet shown in great detail to be found by us upon reading; just as the prophecies were given by the OT writers who had no idea what they were yet.

Meaning, it's spelled out, yet not spelled out at the same time. Jesus IS called God in 2 direct passages - yet people are ignoring them both -- He calls Himself "I AM" as a name... which is a claim of Deity directly in John 8 (which the People even understood as such) - that gets shunned & excused away.
IT IS THERE, but people can manipulate that to deny or alter the meaning. (as they do w/ the homosexual condemnation verses too - as well as many others to suit their preferences).

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all [Paul's] letters, speaking in them of these things,
in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort (twist), as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

The Trinity is drawn right out for us - but it's something one has to collectively put together, and those who do, SEE & KNOW THE MYSTERY OF GOD in His true identity; which is somewhat veiled -- yet openly taught.

Ignorance is not rejection - there's a difference. No, people don't have to fully understand the Trinity - you don't have to even know Jesus is God to be of Him.
BUT ONCE YOU ARE SHOWN & TAUGHT, YOU CANNOT DENY AND REJECT HIS IDENTITY upon the revelation of it. That is a denial & rejection of His person and the written scriptures that do spell it out.

God's word is Spiritually Discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him;
and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

Mt. 16:
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"​

16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.​

John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day.​

Matt. 16
[16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,
the Son of the living God."...]
20 Then He warned the disciples that they
should tell no one that He was the Christ.​

Luke 4:41
Demons also were coming out of many, shouting,
"You are the Son of God!" But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.​

Luke 10:21
At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said,
"I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.​

Notice what the Sanhedrin are understanding of Jesus' claim in being "Son of God":​

Mat. 26
63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God:
Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." ​

64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?"

"He is worthy of death," they answered.
[*they blindfolded Jesus first*
Luke 22:64
They blindfolded him and demanded,
"Prophesy! Who hit you?"]
67 Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him
68 and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"​

From their understanding of His claim of being SON OF GOD - they're automatically tying in that He should be able to do something supernatural that normal people cannot do - there's an automatic understanding that His claim is to be linked with DEITY.
Not just that all followers of God are called 'sons of God' - they don't ask regular people who are 'sons of God' to prove they can do miracles...​

And other passages are showing us that Christ didn't want to be OPENLY identified earlier on in His ministry yet when He told certain people not go out & reveal His identity yet.
So there's a veiling/hiding going on during His ministry for awhile.​

DEITY is involved with the term "Son of God" - as being the lineage/of the order of GOD Himself. This page article goes into detail about the significance of the term was in their day and language​

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p211.html

I know this is 'all over the place' -- but the concept I'm relaying is that there's more going on here in the terminologies of their day and in Jesus' ministry (as we see antitrinitarians demanding "Show me where it comes right out and just says 'I JESUS, AM GOD'" or "if there's a Trinity, "Show me where the Bible says "I GOD, AM A TRINITY"' - ie. the WORD Trinity has to be there or else it's false ). The Bible is written in that it gives the GRADUAL REVELATION OF TRUTH over a span of thousands of years.

The Trinity/Deity of Christ ARE interwoven thruout it from OT to NT -- it's plainly given, yet there's a mystery within it - it's also veiled to where the Father Himself has to reveal His identity for us to accept Him for who He is.

And this is a strong reason why Christianity is the ONLY religion that embraces Christ AS GOD and a TRINITY!
No other religions accept that as true. WHY NOT?
Is it hidden from them?? I say yes, it is!

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Ben12 said:

God does not change; He is one; the Bible declares this literally; and just ask any Hebrew.

Nothing mention of three persons in one; God is not a person He is a Spirit.

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Tavita said:

I've always understood 'sons of God' referred to the angels, or messengers.. as when the sons of God came into the daughters of men, and produced the Nephilim.



If you notice in that verse it says but you (the sons of the Most High) will die like mere men? It sounds like it's differentiating between sons of God and men.

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Nadiine said:

GOD HASN'T CHANGED - HE WAS A TRINITY THEN AS HE IS TODAY! Cover to Cover; OT to NT.

The prophecies of the OT aren't SEEN until the NT is brought to light and CHRIST COMES! It didn't make those OT verses NOT PROPHECIES! We just hadn't realized them yet until Christ came to fulfill them and TURN ON THE LIGHTS.

If you notice in the NT, Jesus took the disciples aside and showed them in the OT all the prophecies and verses that taught of Himself - NOT KNOWN PRIOR TO JESUS TELLING THEM THIS DIRECTLY.

So those OT verses foretelling of Christ and His mission, aren't SEEN UNTIL THE MYSTERY OF THE NT IS FULLY GIVEN and light is shown.

So your claims are false and fall flat on their face upon the mystery that is fully revealed by the NT LATER in time -- and for a bible "scholar" such as yourself, I would think you would realize this fact.

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FreeinChrist said:

In another thread, you wrote:


Actually, no. The Council of Nicea clearly stated it as they had been dealing with various heresies. But the Trinity is seen in scripture and in the writings of the ECF.

Epistle of Barnabus, about 100 AD, 5th chapter and I am making some of it bold:

“And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men”

And then there is Irenaeus, about 150 AD:
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l) "

Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, Book V, ch. 14- about 100 years before Constantine:
“I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.”


I could post more but need to sleep.

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Ben12 said:

Amen; that has nothing to do with the Catholic doctrine of the trinity. God is one.

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Nadiine said:

I think something should be noted and made very clear here.
The Bible writings are directly inspired by the Holy Spirit to each writer. Their wording in the verses are purposeful - they gave pinpointed prophecies which I doubt they even realized that were pointing right to Christ and what would be fulfilled; they were just being LED to write these very things supernaturally. (things they couldn't possibly know yet).

[We can't very well claim that "because the OT writers didn't realize they were prophecies of Christ at that time - or even by the disciples upon seeing Jesus fulfilling them that THEY AREN'T OT PROPHECIES OF JESUS AT ALL"... Just like we can't claim that "some people in the church didn't grasp that Jesus was God yet, so..... JESUS THEREFORE CANNOT BE GOD, it's pagan heresy".
THE WORDING IS ALL THERE AND DIRECTLY TEACHES HE IS GOD and that the 3 are the One True God. Further, the early Christian churches DID embrace it as truth upon finding it. Creeds were even demanded to keep nontrinitarian heresies from infiltrating the churches].

I think it's important to remember that in the OT they didn't know about all the details we know today by the NT writings when Christ revealed them to the Disciples. BUT NOW WE HAVE THE FULL MYSTERY REVEALED TO US.

That's why I believe in earlier times, they didn't grasp the Trinity early on -- but the Trinity and Deity of Christ are directly displayed in and through the writings but still needed to be fully put together by the readers later.
My belief is that the actual identity of God (Christ is Deity/Trinity) are A HIDDEN MYSTERY that is not overtly shown openly, yet shown in great detail to be found by us upon reading; just as the prophecies were given by the OT writers who had no idea what they were yet.

Meaning, it's spelled out, yet not spelled out at the same time. Jesus IS called God in 2 direct passages - yet people are ignoring them both -- He calls Himself "I AM" as a name... which is a claim of Deity directly in John 8 (which the People even understood as such) - that gets shunned & excused away.
IT IS THERE, but people can manipulate that to deny or alter the meaning. (as they do w/ the homosexual condemnation verses too - as well as many others to suit their preferences).

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all [Paul's] letters, speaking in them of these things,
in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort (twist), as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

The Trinity is drawn right out for us - but it's something one has to collectively put together, and those who do, SEE & KNOW THE MYSTERY OF GOD in His true identity; which is somewhat veiled -- yet openly taught.

Ignorance is not rejection - there's a difference. No, people don't have to fully understand the Trinity - you don't have to even know Jesus is God to be of Him.
BUT ONCE YOU ARE SHOWN & TAUGHT, YOU CANNOT DENY AND REJECT HIS IDENTITY upon the revelation of it. That is a denial & rejection of His person and the written scriptures that do spell it out.

God's word is Spiritually Discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him;
and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

Mt. 16:
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"​

16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.​

John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day.​

Matt. 16
[16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,
the Son of the living God."...]
20 Then He warned the disciples that they
should tell no one that He was the Christ.​

Luke 4:41
Demons also were coming out of many, shouting,
"You are the Son of God!" But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.​

Luke 10:21
At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said,
"I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.​

Notice what the Sanhedrin are understanding of Jesus' claim in being "Son of God":​

Mat. 26
63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God:
Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." ​

64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?"​

"He is worthy of death," they answered.
[*they blindfolded Jesus first*
Luke 22:64
They blindfolded him and demanded,
"Prophesy! Who hit you?"]
67 Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him
68 and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"​

From their understanding of His claim of being SON OF GOD - they're automatically tying in that He should be able to do something supernatural that normal people cannot do - there's an automatic understanding that His claim is to be linked with DEITY.
Not just that all followers of God are called 'sons of God' - they don't ask regular people who are 'sons of God' to prove they can do miracles...​

And other passages are showing us that Christ didn't want to be OPENLY identified earlier on in His ministry yet when He told certain people not go out & reveal His identity yet.
So there's a veiling/hiding going on during His ministry for awhile.​

DEITY is involved with the term "Son of God" - as being the lineage/of the order of GOD Himself. This page article goes into detail about the significance of the term was in their day and language​

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p211.html

I know this is 'all over the place' -- but the concept I'm relaying is that there's more going on here in the terminologies of their day and in Jesus' ministry (as we see antitrinitarians demanding "Show me where it comes right out and just says 'I JESUS, AM GOD'" or "if there's a Trinity, "Show me where the Bible says "I GOD, AM A TRINITY"' - ie. the WORD Trinity has to be there or else it's false ). The Bible is written in that it gives the GRADUAL REVELATION OF TRUTH over a span of thousands of years.

The Trinity/Deity of Christ ARE interwoven thruout it from OT to NT -- it's plainly given, yet there's a mystery within it - it's also veiled to where the Father Himself has to reveal His identity for us to accept Him for who He is.

And this is a strong reason why Christianity is the ONLY religion that embraces Christ AS GOD and a TRINITY!
No other religions accept that as true. WHY NOT?
Is it hidden from them?? I say yes, it is!

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Ben12 said:

Amen; that has nothing to do with the Catholic doctrine of the trinity. God is one.

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Nadiine said:

Are you promoting Modalism/oneness doctrine by this statement?
That God the Father IS ALSO the Son and Spirit as one person? That they operate in different roles as the SAME person?
If so the bible directly refutes that as well.

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PeacaHeaven said:

You seem to be refusing a Trinity. As I read her post she is promoting the Trinity. the 3 are separate as Father, Son and Spirit but are One God as a Godhead. Or a unit.

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Ben12 said:

No I am not an Oneness Pentecostal; I do not believe in any man made religion. I am a monotheist; I like the Jews know God is one

God is a person?

Webster:
Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA


1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures

See even Webster is influenced by this catholic doctrine; but show it to me in scripture that God is a person

4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection

Now Jesus was a person.

Show me where God is a person in the Bible? Jesus was a person for 33 1/2 years; but Jesus is, was and still is God; He was manifest in the flesh.

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Nadiine said:

Ok, so then, you believe Jesus isn't GOD then?

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JHM said:

Actually, I believe he is the Son of God.

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Ben12 said:

Never said that; Jesus was not GOD; Jesus was manifested in the flesh. I do not beleive there are three God's or three persons; I believe God is one. that simple.

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JHM said:

I posted my thoughts on that somewhere in here; but this place is such a zoo of off topic posts, I have no idea where it was. Question : What does this whole issue have to do with whether or not there is a Hell ?

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