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Well, you both won't and you can't. God has given us free will, we are not preprogrammed as the Bible indicates.Can't, and won't, or don't want to, are very, very different things.
Hi Mark! Good to see you.Hey, brother! Good to see you again!
Not sure what you mean by "highest preferred choice". Sounds like a bit of unnecessary and imprecise attachments or hidden implications to the simple idea of 'preference' or 'inclination'. We always choose according to what we prefer, even if that preference is only at that instant of making that choice.
Maybe you mean to ask whether our choices cause what is preordained to come to pass. Yes, they do. They play a part in the logical 'chains of causation'.
Don’t you mean can’t want to?Can't, and won't, or don't want to, are very, very different things.
I mean I'm not going to take the time to address every single case of idiocy on the internet.Don’t you mean can’t want to?
Yes, I agree.Destiny is only the same as fate, in human cynicism. The problem here is that too many people equate God's joyful, willed, full-of-life Intent (Decree, and Predestination, Ordaining, —"whatsoever cometh to pass") as mere cold fate.
Woa Woa! Why am I typing right now? I didn’t want to type anything right now. Why is this happening? I don’t understand. Is God making me type this? I’m so confused right now, seriously this is crazy.I mean I'm not going to take the time to address every single case of idiocy on the internet.
It's a full time job, and I'm not getting paid enough for this.
No offense.
I've said what I said, and you guys can either take it or leave it, but I'm probably (maybe anyway) am probably just going to leave it for a little while after this.
God and I already knows I am/we are right about this, so...?
So I might just leave it for a little while after this, etc.
God Bless.
You are an ungrateful lot, and by that I mean not just you, but all of you, etc.Woa Woa! Why am I typing right now? I didn’t want to type anything right now. Why is this happening? I don’t understand. Is God making me type this? I’m so confused right now, seriously this is crazy.
What evidence do you have to support this? Matthew 2:23? It doesn’t say that God told Joseph to go there.God ordained Joseph to live in Nazareth so that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, but Joseph looked at the events around him and made the decision to live in Nazareth.
BN-"You have one writer that supported this idea. "But that’s not what I actually said now is it? So who’s being disingenuous here?
When you talk of "free will" or "man cooperating with God" you are parroting the Catholic doctrine. This is what the Reformers fought against.I couldn’t care less what Trent taught it was rejected by every apostolic church other than Rome. And the only source I quoted was Iranaeus from 170AD.
Man can't repent unless God grants it to them. Repentance is a gift from God.I never rejected Ancestral Sin, just the idea that man can’t repent and turn to God.
You'd have to admt that your quote is not unlike a Christian "cult" (sect) ; especially when you say ...You are an ungrateful lot, and by that I mean not just you, but all of you, etc.
But, either way, my yes's and no's, are the very same a His yes's and no's, and our wills are perfectly in synch, and there's absolutely nothing at all confusing about that for me, etc.
The way I feel, is the very same way He feels, etc, and those are also very much in synch, etc.
"I don't believe God deliberately closes people's eyes and ears to His message of truth"I don't believe God deliberately closes people's eyes and ears to His message of truth, as that would undermine the purpose of Christ's sacrifice for our sins (1 Timothy 2:3-4). The passage in Isaiah, fulfilled in Jesus' encounter with the rebellious Jews, highlights God's mercy in hardening their hearts, allowing us to receive the message of hope and be grafted in (Romans 11:25-26). Paul explains how this hardening has worked in favor of the Gentiles, giving us the privilege of hearing God's Word and choosing to accept or reject it. This opportunity demonstrates God's mercy towards both Gentiles (represented by Esau) and Israel (represented by Jacob), as discussed in Paul's discourse. Our responsibility is to share this message of hope, sowing the seed, watering it, and trusting God for the growth, without necessarily knowing the extent of humanity's hardened hearts.
I've never suggested that regeneration occurs apart from the Holy Spirit's work. Instead, I've emphasized that God regenerates us as we yield to His transformative power. In this passage, we see a mixed response, dependent on the heart's condition, which remains unknown to us. Our responsibility, therefore, is to obediently serve as conduits of the gospel message, sharing it through both word and deed, just as Paul did. This obedience allows God to work through us, to bring about his redemptive plan for humanity.
This is a Calvinist interpretation of that verse, based on word order.
Let's consider the immediate context ...as it starts with the Jews' rejection of Him.
Acts 13:39-41
Through Him, everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: "
'Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.'
Everyone who 1) believes, 2) is set free. What is this something, that will happen if they reject? What happened in Habakkuk (the passage references Habakkuk 1:5). God will judge them through a Gentile nation...Did God judge them through a Gentile nation when they rejected His Son? History is a witness.
Acts 13:45
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.
See Paul's thoughts on this in Romans 10, not all accepted the good news, but God was and is long-suffering,
"All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."
Acts 13:46-48
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles." When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord spread throughout that region.
What did they hear that they rejoiced and praised God? That they had been given the opportunity to be grafted into the olive tree. Considering the overall context, the believing is not following an individual appointment to eternal life but rather the appointment of Gentiles into the olive tree as declared by the Prophets and affirmed by Paul in Romans.
The passages I mentioned earlier suggest that God communicates with us through various means, including creation, our conscience, and human experience. As Hebrews 11:6 states, faith involves believing in God's existence and His promise to reward those who seek Him. This is exemplified in Abraham's story, where God revealed Himself to him without a preacher, and Abraham responded with faith. This kind of faith is what we called to have, trusting that there is a God, we now have a name for this God - Jesus. It's not just about hearing the gospel preached, but also about responding. Responding to God's revelation in our lives by the measure of faith given us.
I consider it biblical teaching.
God is always actively drawing, even the person reading this post. He communicates in ways that surpass our understanding, yet everything He does is driven by His desire to welcome us into His kingdom. With boundless generosity, He pours out His love and grace, inviting us to experience the depth of His kindness.
I don't believe this is questioning God's justice. As He more than demonstrates His justice and mercy when He extends His invitation to us as Gentiles. In His wisdom, He extends the gift of salvation to all, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. As Paul emphasized, neither Jew nor Gentile earned their selection. Instead, God leveled the playing field, making faith - faith in Christ as Gods provision - the only way to become His child, which it always was. Both Jews and Gentiles must rely on God's grace, as neither can claim credit for their redemption.
I firmly believe God is indeed sovereign and powerful, even more so, that He is not intimidated by our failures or potential rejection of Him. His sovereignty transcends selecting an elite few, instead, it's about patiently drawing humanity to Himself for the sake of His Son. To suggest that the price God paid on the cross was insufficient for everyone, but only sufficient for a select few, is a slap in the face. You're right, we don't deserve this kindness, yet He extends it to all anyway. This reveals volumes about His character, but also ours.
"I don't believe God deliberately closes people's eyes and ears to His message of truth, as that would undermine the purpose of Christ's sacrifice for our sins (1 Timothy 2:3-4)."I don't believe God deliberately closes people's eyes and ears to His message of truth, as that would undermine the purpose of Christ's sacrifice for our sins (1 Timothy 2:3-4). The passage in Isaiah, fulfilled in Jesus' encounter with the rebellious Jews, highlights God's mercy in hardening their hearts, allowing us to receive the message of hope and be grafted in (Romans 11:25-26). Paul explains how this hardening has worked in favor of the Gentiles, giving us the privilege of hearing God's Word and choosing to accept or reject it. This opportunity demonstrates God's mercy towards both Gentiles (represented by Esau) and Israel (represented by Jacob), as discussed in Paul's discourse. Our responsibility is to share this message of hope, sowing the seed, watering it, and trusting God for the growth, without necessarily knowing the extent of humanity's hardened hearts.
I've never suggested that regeneration occurs apart from the Holy Spirit's work. Instead, I've emphasized that God regenerates us as we yield to His transformative power. In this passage, we see a mixed response, dependent on the heart's condition, which remains unknown to us. Our responsibility, therefore, is to obediently serve as conduits of the gospel message, sharing it through both word and deed, just as Paul did. This obedience allows God to work through us, to bring about his redemptive plan for humanity.
This is a Calvinist interpretation of that verse, based on word order.
Let's consider the immediate context ...as it starts with the Jews' rejection of Him.
Acts 13:39-41
Through Him, everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: "
'Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.'
Everyone who 1) believes, 2) is set free. What is this something, that will happen if they reject? What happened in Habakkuk (the passage references Habakkuk 1:5). God will judge them through a Gentile nation...Did God judge them through a Gentile nation when they rejected His Son? History is a witness.
Acts 13:45
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.
See Paul's thoughts on this in Romans 10, not all accepted the good news, but God was and is long-suffering,
"All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."
Acts 13:46-48
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles." When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord spread throughout that region.
What did they hear that they rejoiced and praised God? That they had been given the opportunity to be grafted into the olive tree. Considering the overall context, the believing is not following an individual appointment to eternal life but rather the appointment of Gentiles into the olive tree as declared by the Prophets and affirmed by Paul in Romans.
The passages I mentioned earlier suggest that God communicates with us through various means, including creation, our conscience, and human experience. As Hebrews 11:6 states, faith involves believing in God's existence and His promise to reward those who seek Him. This is exemplified in Abraham's story, where God revealed Himself to him without a preacher, and Abraham responded with faith. This kind of faith is what we called to have, trusting that there is a God, we now have a name for this God - Jesus. It's not just about hearing the gospel preached, but also about responding. Responding to God's revelation in our lives by the measure of faith given us.
I consider it biblical teaching.
God is always actively drawing, even the person reading this post. He communicates in ways that surpass our understanding, yet everything He does is driven by His desire to welcome us into His kingdom. With boundless generosity, He pours out His love and grace, inviting us to experience the depth of His kindness.
I don't believe this is questioning God's justice. As He more than demonstrates His justice and mercy when He extends His invitation to us as Gentiles. In His wisdom, He extends the gift of salvation to all, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. As Paul emphasized, neither Jew nor Gentile earned their selection. Instead, God leveled the playing field, making faith - faith in Christ as Gods provision - the only way to become His child, which it always was. Both Jews and Gentiles must rely on God's grace, as neither can claim credit for their redemption.
I firmly believe God is indeed sovereign and powerful, even more so, that He is not intimidated by our failures or potential rejection of Him. His sovereignty transcends selecting an elite few, instead, it's about patiently drawing humanity to Himself for the sake of His Son. To suggest that the price God paid on the cross was insufficient for everyone, but only sufficient for a select few, is a slap in the face. You're right, we don't deserve this kindness, yet He extends it to all anyway. This reveals volumes about His character, but also ours.
Where in the text do you see God telling Joseph to go to Nazareth?What evidence do you have to support this? Matthew 2:23? It doesn’t say that God told Joseph to go there.
I'd agree, except that I don't see it as a mystery. To me it is simple. What is a mystery to me is why we insist on utter spontaneity to be endemic to the human will. We insist on being fellow-sentient beings with God, either both within a larger reality, or both above that reality. We want to be added to him, and not 'in Christ'.Yes, I agree.
Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Fate is the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power. Both of these is not what decree, predestination, ordaining is all about. God guides and directs the affairs of men, but man is responsible for his actions. It's a mystery. God ordained Joseph to live in Nazareth so that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, but Joseph looked at the events around him and made the decision to live in Nazareth. Joseph's action but God's control. Joseph was following God's will without knowing it while God directed his steps.
BTW-this is the one of the most beautiful of all doctrines. There is nothing we can do that is not outside of God's divine control and guidance.
Different POV, I guess. Oh well. I'll try.Hi Mark! Good to see you.
I still don't understand what it means that we are inclined to make a specific choice and therefore we make that choice. I don't see there is any proof of such an inclination. Maybe you can explain that?
Yes, I agree.
Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Fate is the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power. Both of these is not what decree, predestination, ordaining is all about. God guides and directs the affairs of men, but man is responsible for his actions. It's a mystery. God ordained Joseph to live in Nazareth so that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, but Joseph looked at the events around him and made the decision to live in Nazareth. Joseph's action but God's control. Joseph was following God's will without knowing it while God directed his steps.
BTW-this is the one of the most beautiful of all doctrines. There is nothing we can do that is not outside of God's divine control and guidance.
Ok my point is that there is no evidence that suggests that God made Joseph choose to go to Nazareth. Just because it was prophesied doesn’t mean it was dictated. The prophecy could just been the result of God’s foreknowledge of where Joseph would decide to go.Where in the text do you see God telling Joseph to go to Nazareth?
Matt 2:19 But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord *appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said, 20 “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.” 21 So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Then after being warned by God in a dream, he left for the regions of Galilee, 23 and came and settled in a city called Nazareth. This happened so that what was spoken through the prophets would be fulfilled: “He will be called a Nazarene.”
The angel tells Joseph to go back to the land of Israel (not Narareth). Joseph did but looking at the political climate, and being warned in a dream, Joseph left the regions of Galilee and he settled in Nazareth. He was told not to stay in Galilee. His decision to move to Nazareth.
If you don't like this illustration I have others. For example, a person named Cyrus was prophesized by name to return the remant to their homeland by Isaiah (44:28, 45:1). 150 years later, a fellow named Cyrus decides he's going to return all the captives of Babylon. God ordained. Man acts.
Thanks!Hey Clare
You've mentioned this passage a few times, I thought I'd offer a different perspective
This was not God's charge to man's unfairness as you mentioned but rather a promise of fruitfulness to those who would heed His call.
Isaiah 55 presents a beautiful promise from God, inviting all to come and drink from the living waters of salvation, freely offered through Christ. This was an invitation, a call to wisdom, urging the Jews to turn away from wickedness and seek God's forgiveness. By surrendering to Christ, the embodiment of God's covenant promise, mirroring the reliable promise made to David. As David was a witness to the nations, so too will they be witnesses to the world, testifying to God's redemption and love (I see the disciples in view here). The prophet emphasizes the importance of seeking God while He is near, assuring that He will forgive and fulfill His plan to covenant with those who surrender to Christ. That is His ways and plans that is higher than ours, His ability to fulfill His promise.
Good question. I doubt if we'll recall our past failings but we will certainly be humbled in seeing His excellent glory.We are all in one book, we each have a role.
In the post world shall we be given a book of life, and know what each did prior.
Will we remember who our role was? Or will we bow our head in shame?
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