I am waiting for the Second Coming, not watching the Nations carry out their affairs.Jesus said "Behold the Fig tree AND ALL THE TREES".
What do you think He meant by all the trees"?
Are those words of His meaningless to you? Words you can simply ignore?
This is in regards to the blooming fig tree. They see it unfold on earth, but they certainly do not procreate nor die in Paradise.Yet you exclude them from any application.
According to you, the apsotles did NOT "See all those things" (Matthew 24:33) even though Jesus said they would.
Again, the YOU never changes. It ALWAYS includes the Apostles:
33 So you also [Apostles standing here], when you[Apostles standing here] see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
You never answered my question. You posed two questions that show how you do hermeneutics.Who is mentioning hermeneutics? You change topics, and ask questions leading away from the original point. I am just trying to keep up.
"It is understood" - how is it understood that fig trees represent Israel? Based on what?It is understood if not explicit. Does every thing have to be explicit? Did Jesus explain every thing He said or did?
I'm not meaning a small gap. I'm meaning one that consists of 2000 years or so, this assuming the coming recorded in verse 27 happens within our lifetimes.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Most ppl propose that the parallel of Luke 21:20 is Matthew 24:15-26. So let's examine that and see if that is indeed the case.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Let's skip ahead to verse 29.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Obviously, the tribulation of those days meant are meaning what is recorded in verse 15-26 above. It even clearly calls it tribulation in verse 21. It couldn't be any clearer then, that this great tribulation in verse 21 is what is meant by the tribulation of those days in verse 29. Yet, some will dispute even this. But why? What other tribulation days could it possibly be talking about if that is what this chapter was just talking about prior to verse 29?
If we make Matthew 24:21 parallel to Luke 21:20, this presents a cpl of problems, such as the following. Matthew 24:29 records---immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
When did any of that ever happen immediately after the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 in the first century? That's one problem this interpretation presents. Some ppl are Preterists though, so maybe to them there are none of these problems I'm insisting that there is. But not everyone are Preterists, though. A lot of us believe, thus agree, that the coming recorded in Luke 21:27, and the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, these involve the 2nd coming in the end of this age, not a coming in another sense involving Jerusalem in 70 AD instead.
The other problem this interpretation presents is this, keeping in mind what I have been arguing up to this point involving Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:21.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I have been arguing that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 is meaning the great trib recorded in verse 21. I have been arguing that nothing recorded in Matthew 24:15-26 involves Jerusalem in the first century since what is recorded in verse 29 never immediately followed any events in the first century.
I have also been arguing that there is a gap of at least 2000 years after the fulfilling of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27 in that same chapter. If Matthew 24:15-26 is parallel to Luke 21:20, where then is this same 2000 year gap between what is recorded in Matthew 24:29 and the coming recorded in verse 30? There is no 2000 year gap between those verses. Obviously, there is a gap of some kind, but it couldn't possibly be a gap involving thousands of years.
In Luke 21:20 the 2nd coming is still several thousand years away. In Matthew 24:29, which is immediately after the trib of those days recorded in verses 15-26 in this same chapter, the 2nd coming is not still 2000 years or so away. It's at the door instead. Thus the other problem this interpretation presents if Matthew 24:15-26 is assumed the parallel of Luke 21:20.
I am waiting for the Second Coming, not watching the Nations carry out their affairs.
"And all the trees"This is in regards to the blooming fig tree.
Huh?They see it unfold on earth, but they certainly do not procreate nor die in Paradise.
Huh?Israel did not become a great nation between 30AD and 70AD.
The apostles did not see the end of the church age in 70AD.
But my question to you was, do you pick and choose which words of Jesus to listen to? It’s relevant since both verses reference the same event, yet you only give weight to one. I was wondering why.I asked questions to clarify your position, not mine.
You’re confusing Luke 21:20 with the events in 70 AD.
Would the original audience have confused it as well, when they acctually saw Jerusalem encompassed by armies in their generation?
How would they have known THAT particular encompassing and desolation of Jerusalem, that happened before that generation had passed, was NOT the one Jesus meant?
Who else did Jesus curse? We are not talking about other nations, other than the one with the Temple set up in the Law of Moses."It is understood" - how is it understood that fig trees represent Israel? Based on what?
Not what I said. Guess you are free to make judgments however you see fit.So His words in this passage are meaningless to you then. You feel free to disgregard them as useless.
Gotcha.
Israel has not had an end either and the church did not replace Israel. Israel as a Nation will be forever, world without end."And all the trees"
Huh?
Huh?
No scripture teaches the Church age has an end.
Scripture does teach, however, that the Church abides throughout ALL ages, forever:
Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Maybe you feel this passage is irrelevant and meaningless as well?
Is that not wise as Jesus told people they could do a multitude of things, that are not the personal preferences of living life as a normal person in 2022?But my question to you was, do you pick and choose which words of Jesus to listen to? It’s relevant since both verses reference the same event, yet you only give weight to one. I was wondering why.
I can’t tell if you are just missing the point or if you are being purposely obtuse. I’ll assume the former for now.Is that not wise as Jesus told people they could do a multitude of things, that are not the personal preferences of living life as a normal person in 2022?
So, you understand it by association. Jesus cursed a fig tree, Israel was judged, therefore the fig tree = Israel.Who else did Jesus curse? We are not talking about other nations, other than the one with the Temple set up in the Law of Moses.
I know.Excellent question!
They would know it by the sequence of events Jesus outlines that will precede the son of perdition/abomination of desolation event Jesus describes in verse 20.
Before that event there will be great earthquakes, famines, pestilences, terrifying events in the heavens, the seas and waves roaring, with great distress upon the earth,
70 AD was a foreshadow fulfillment, and Christians actually did flee Judaea then due to remembering Jesus’ warning about seeing Judea surrounded by armies - but after the fact it’s obvious that the preceding events to the son of perdition/abomination of desolation event Jesus described in Luke 21:20, Matthew 24:15, and Mark 13:14, did not occur in 70 AD - which is why we now know it was a foreshadow fulfillment.
Israel has not had an end either and the church did not replace Israel. Israel as a Nation will be forever, world without end.
Not what I said. Guess you are free to make judgments however you see fit.
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