There has to be some problems in Heaven, right?

[Dirk1540]

Let's look at the world, in any government corruption is the norm not the exception, governments are actually evil to the core! Disease. Physical injuries/accidents, etc. Starvation. The entire world is a profit based system that actually builds things to fail to maximize profit. Corporations buy patents for things that are TOO good in order to hide them from the light of day, etc. Anyway, I believe Heaven has to be the best possible world WHERE FREE WILL EXISTS.

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways! I believe Heaven will be the best possible world, no disease, no hunger, a GOOD to the core world government (Jesus will be the king of the world in the new Earth), people will heal instantly from injury (we'll be a bunch of Wolverines without the claws). But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you, people can decide to steal, etc. Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Read Revelation Chapter 21-22 and you'll get a good idea of what Heaven is like

 

[alsughasoughaiuyfygh]

I think we will have the same kind of free will Adam had before the fall. We will make our own decisions but we will have no sin nature to affect our decision making like we do now. We will simply choose not to sin like how the Angels do.

Just my two cents.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

“He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[Yanni depp]

Philippians 1:6

I think that says we will be fully sanctified by the time we get to heaven.

I dont think free will is going to be linked to a choice of good/evil at that point when all evil has been conquered by Jesus Christ.

 

[lutherangerman]

After death we are different people. Paul wrote that those who die are free of sin. We get new bodies who are different from ours here and cannot be tempted anymore. Heaven is another place that is metaphysically different where sin simply does not come to mind anymore. It's all about love and goodness then. Add the traditions of Heaven, the angels as a police force, etc. God is more present too and Jesus built a life for us.

 

[Serving Zion]

Great question!

But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you, people can decide to steal, etc. Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

Or don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Don’t be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, those who practice homosexuality, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers, swindlers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

But for the cowardly and faithless and detestable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars—their lot is in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8

It appears that you've picked up some false doctrines, that have effectively taught as though Isaiah 28:15.

Consider John 14:21 and John 6:40. There is no guarantee of salvation unless we obey His commandments and get to know Him (John 17:3). If someone has taught you to believe in your salvation through Christianity, but you do not know Him personally, then you are going the wrong way about it (consider John 10:1).

May I recommend that you check whether your doctrines match the information at this link? (It is a booklet, you can turn the pages by clicking the corners, and it is designed to build a concept of faith by reading from beginning to end).

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Let's look at the world, in any government corruption is the norm not the exception, governments are actually evil to the core! Disease. Physical injuries/accidents, etc. Starvation. The entire world is a profit based system that actually builds things to fail to maximize profit. Corporations buy patents for things that are TOO good in order to hide them from the light of day, etc. Anyway, I believe Heaven has to be the best possible world WHERE FREE WILL EXISTS.

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways! I believe Heaven will be the best possible world, no disease, no hunger, a GOOD to the core world government (Jesus will be the king of the world in the new Earth), people will heal instantly from injury (we'll be a bunch of Wolverines without the claws). But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you, people can decide to steal, etc. Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

No disrespect but spend time in God's word and seek true understanding.

 

[Dirk1540]

I think I'm just trying to solve the philosophical puzzle, HOW exactly do free beings never want to sin in a 'Heavenly Body?' I am familiar with verses saying that we will have a different 'Nature' but I'm trying to think of ways to wrap my mind around it. If I'm free, and my freedom is proven by sin in the world, then how will I be free without an inclination to sin. Would you say that my original example is flawed? That people who use the robot analogy to explain why sin exists is a poor choice of apologetics?

It's just one of those things that makes my mind want to explode, like when I think about how time is relative and one person can age 1 year in one spot in the universe, while another person will age 30 years just because they are located in a different spot of the universe. What a mind teaser!!! Likewise the Heaven dilemma always made my head want to explode lol.

 

[Eryk]

my freedom is proven by sin in the world

No, sin is bondage. That is why we say that Christ made us free (Gal. 5:1). Grace will perfect our freedom.

Sin is a handicap. Sin is not the freedom to do something. It is a disability. It is a violent, destructive madness and God had pity on us.

Sin brings death and corruption. Heaven is everlasting life.

 

[JoeP222w]

Let's look at the world, in any government corruption is the norm not the exception, governments are actually evil to the core! Disease. Physical injuries/accidents, etc. Starvation. The entire world is a profit based system that actually builds things to fail to maximize profit. Corporations buy patents for things that are TOO good in order to hide them from the light of day, etc. Anyway, I believe Heaven has to be the best possible world WHERE FREE WILL EXISTS.

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways! I believe Heaven will be the best possible world, no disease, no hunger, a GOOD to the core world government (Jesus will be the king of the world in the new Earth), people will heal instantly from injury (we'll be a bunch of Wolverines without the claws). But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you, people can decide to steal, etc. Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

Man does not have autonomous free will. Man makes moral choices, but he makes choices based upon his or her nature.

God is the only one who has autonomous free will. God is sovereign, not man.

 

[Petros2015]

But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you

Matthew 22:30

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

So... I don't think your lover will cheat on you, I don't think you'll have a lover

people can decide to steal

What do you think they will steal from you? Your happiness?

 

[Serving Zion]

I think I'm just trying to solve the philosophical puzzle, HOW exactly do free beings never want to sin in a 'Heavenly Body?'

You need to understand what makes a person have a desire to sin, first of all.

St James defines sin as "He who knows the good he should do and does not do it, to him it is sin".

What real examples can you think of that fit this definition? I have some questions for you:

• Does the example require that the one doing sin needs to somewhat conceal the facts (lie/deceive) so as to avoid condemnation?
• Does the example only exist because the one is suffering some sort of lack? (iow, if all his needs were met, would he desire to do this sin?).
• Does the example seem that it should be lawful according to his logic and moral compass, yet according to God's law it is unlawful?

Keep in mind that sinners tempt others to be sinners (eg: someone who is angry tempts another to be prideful, someone who is lusting tempts another to be angry, someone who is prideful tempts another to be envious, etc). In a world where everyone is holy, there exists no such temptation as this for sin, but rather everybody respects each other and with love, looks out for each person's interests. There is no fear of condemnation, because none of us intends any malice, and there is no threat of punishment for any mistake, because we all have pure intentions. The Father has caused us to know Jesus for that reason (John 6:44-45, John 10:29). Do you know, there is no accuser in heaven? (Revelation 12:10). Do you know the significance of this?

This world though is full of sinners and it is a covetous, vindictive civilisation, that has made deceit the only practical way for survival. That will be mainly why it is a difficult concept for you to grasp: have you ever known a holy person? Have you ever observed the righteousness of the justice of a holy person? All those in heaven have resolved to be saints, and to not be sinners. Not all Christians on earth have resolved to be saints though, and they even seem to think it is cool to boast about it!

I am familiar with verses saying that we will have a different 'Nature' but I'm trying to think of ways to wrap my mind around it. If I'm free, and my freedom is proven by sin in the world, then how will I be free without an inclination to sin. Would you say that my original example is flawed? That people who use the robot analogy to explain why sin exists is a poor choice of apologetics?

Most of the time there is more than one good option when we are making a choice. Choosing to not be sinful doesn't take away free will from most choices.

If we sin, we are choosing to do that which we know we should not do, and it causes harm. It is possible to have free will and yet not choose to do sin.

It's just one of those things that makes my mind want to explode, like when I think about how time is relative and one person can age 1 year in one spot in the universe, while another person will age 30 years just because they are located in a different spot of the universe. What a mind teaser!!! Likewise the Heaven dilemma always made my head want to explode lol.

It would probably help if you can refine your concept of sin and your understanding of righteous justice - the way God judges us for our sin, and the special provisions He has made through Jesus' atoning sacrifice.

I remember that I have said some helpful things for that in these posts:

2 questions on subjects I don't understand
Seriously?
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...r-become-sinless.7967176/page-5#post-70183989
Why is it that many Christians
What is your view of atonement?

 

[SPF]

I think I'm just trying to solve the philosophical puzzle, HOW exactly do free beings never want to sin in a 'Heavenly Body?' I am familiar with verses saying that we will have a different 'Nature' but I'm trying to think of ways to wrap my mind around it. If I'm free, and my freedom is proven by sin in the world, then how will I be free without an inclination to sin. Would you say that my original example is flawed? That people who use the robot analogy to explain why sin exists is a poor choice of apologetics?

Dirk, this is a great question.

Think about your life now, do you have free will? Yes. You have the ability to make choices now. I don't know if you can, but think about your life before you became a Christian as compared to after you became a Christian. Did you have just as much free will before becoming a Christian? Yes.

But, as a Christian, you should notice that your heart, over time, is beginning to look more like Christ's. Sanctification is a life long process where the more we seek Christ and the things of Christ, the more our heart and desires will reflect Christ. The more you grow in your trust of Christ, the outward result will be that you sin less. Sinning less and displaying the fruit of the spirit is what happens as you grow in sanctification.

But remember, you still have free will through all of that.

Jonathan Edwards said that we always make choices at any given time according to our greatest inclination. Whatever your greatest inclination is will determine your choice. Play it out and you'll see the truth of that statement. The more you follow Christ, the more your greatest inclination will reflect holiness.

So fast forward to heaven. When Christ returns, He is going to redeem and restore both His followers and creation. Heaven will come down to the new earth, and we will all live here on earth.

The key to why you won't sin is sanctification. The process will be completed when Christ returns and gives you a perfected body that is not driven by your flesh.

What does it look like? For example, you won't covet what your neighbor has. What will happen is that your neighbors joy will only serve to enhance your own joy. You won't become jealous of someone else. You will see them and be filled with joy for them.

Hopefully you've seen a shadow of this in your daily life. You want to love others more, you want to support others more, you want to be happy and joyful for others - but you stumble. There are times where you covet, or you're jealous, or you lust, or you become angry. You have not completed the process of sanctification so you cannot love others as you actually want to now.

So it's not about whether or not we can sin in heaven. Sin won't be an issue in heaven because you will finally be the person you are trying to be now. Whether you can actually sin or not after Christ returns becomes a non-issue because once your sanctification is complete, you, in your free will, will only look others in love, in joy, in peace, in patience - and other peoples joy will only serve to enhance your own.

 

[Albion]

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven??.... Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

Presuimably, there is free will in heaven because we know that even the angels had it and some chose to rebel. But in heaven we will also be in love with righteousness, unlike life in Earthly society.

 

[bling]

Sin has purpose here on earth, but there is no purpose for sin in heaven, so we certainly do n need to sin.
You will not be a sexual being in heaven, so all the competition for sex is eliminated. Thing of how much sin is related to sex?
In heaven you have it all (God is totally unselfishly generous) so there is nothing to covet.
Yes, some people will have greater Love than you have, but think about that: it just means they Love you more than you Love them back, so is that bad for you?
You have already experienced sin on earth so you are not tempted to go through that again.
You have experienced satan so you do not need that experience again.
All that God knows is available to you and the tree of knowledge is not there.
The main thing is this: on earth you have the indwelling Holy Spirit who cannot sin, but you can unknowingly walk away from Him (quench Him) because you cannot see when he is with you and when he is not with you, but in heaven you see Him at your elbow, talk with Him constantly and he is not going to get involved in sinning.

 

[Resha Caner]

Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will?

Have you committed murder?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I think I'm just trying to solve the philosophical puzzle, HOW exactly do free beings never want to sin in a 'Heavenly Body?' I am familiar with verses saying that we will have a different 'Nature' but I'm trying to think of ways to wrap my mind around it. If I'm free, and my freedom is proven by sin in the world, then how will I be free without an inclination to sin. Would you say that my original example is flawed? That people who use the robot analogy to explain why sin exists is a poor choice of apologetics?

It's just one of those things that makes my mind want to explode, like when I think about how time is relative and one person can age 1 year in one spot in the universe, while another person will age 30 years just because they are located in a different spot of the universe. What a mind teaser!!! Likewise the Heaven dilemma always made my head want to explode lol.

Think about this.
After the fall of man there was a curse loosed in this earth which din is a part of.

We have not ever took one breath that was not in this cursed world.

There is NO CURSE in Heaven.
We have not ever lived outside the curse before.
Blessings

 

[Dkh587]

Heaven is coming down at the end of the Millenial Reign of Messiah. The kingdom of God is gonna be right here on earth, which will be renewed. God's kingdom is a kingdom of righteousness. The world is full of lawlessness. When the Messiah comes back to establish the kingdom, it will certainly be a great time

 

[1213]

So we WILL be robots in Heaven??

I don’t think so. Bible tells that only righteous go to heaven.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Righteous person wants freely do good, because he understands it is good and wants good. That is why eternal life is for righteous only. Others would make it eternal suffering, similarly as they have made this life.