There are Two Creation Stories in Genesis

Pathfinder627 · Oct 2, 2020

Dale said:
Pathfinder: "Even the Sumerians, who shared the basic underlying template of the story, presented Eden as a physical place. Except in their case, the Sumerian "gods" built this home for themselves."

Pagans are not a good source. Actually the notion that Eden was paradise in the sense that we use the word today seems to be a misconception. "Paradise" is a Persian word for garden but modern Christians take it as Heaven. Yet Genesis never says that Eden was a heavenly paradise, only that God prepared it for Adam and Eve as a place to live.

I'm only illustrating that someone as wrong as Sumerians would still not budge into the realm of Gnosticism. It's amusing to me that even they had a threshold here. That's all I'm pointing out. Projecting Gnosticism into all of this is an anachronism anyways. It's a school of thought that came thousands of years (or at least a thousand) later and doesn't exactly belong in the hopes of the ancient world or their ideas of paradise.

*Some* modern Christians aren't very informed either. Jesus comes back to make a new heaven and earth. Not just heaven. The Church has historically squashed the over-spiritualizing tendencies of the Gnostics, and taught the importance of both material and spiritual reality. Not just the latter. The core of the Church's teaching is that Jesus is both God and Man. And this is the hope behind his Resurrection itself as well. That we will be raised in glorified, but flesh and bone bodies. Not simply go to heaven. The Lord's Prayer itself is a call for the Kingdom of God to come on earth: "On earth as it is in heaven". The real work of the Kingdom starts in the here and now, not elsewhere. This is also why there are so many calls for down to earth justice throughout the scriptures. Not meditations and contemplation about other realities. But improving life here first. The more Christians get away from a social, down to earth "gospel", the less it becomes "gospel" (that is, good news). Few want to hear good news about somewhere else, but good news for this world.

"Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.

Your hands are full of blood!

Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow." - Isaiah 1:13-17

GenemZ · Oct 2, 2020

-57 said:
I doubt it. God had already made the animas...showed Adam. That chicken can't be your wife, neither can the cow or lion. God then made Adams wife from his rib.

I see where you confusion was...

The Lord provided the animals first before giving Adam his helpmate.

Why? To teach Adam an important lesson with.

For Adam most likely spent years in observation and naming all the animals. Most likely Adam spent some time with each creature to study them so he could come up with a name.

For the first thing Adam did when the Woman was FINALLY brought to him?

He INSTANTLY knew what was to happen. How else could he know that man was to leave his father and mother and cling to his wife and become one flesh?

How could he know that? He was the first man! No fathers. No mothers!

How could he know? Because....

Adam observed animals reproducing and having offspring. By time Eve was given to him, Adam was thoroughly educated in the " birds and the bees."

Pathfinder627 · Oct 2, 2020

genez said:
How could he know? Because....

Adam observed animals reproducing and having offspring. By time Eve was given to him, Adam was thoroughly educated in the " birds and the bees."

I tagged this as funny, but don't mean it as disrespect. Just never thought of that.

Oaktree125 · Oct 2, 2020

Dale said:
In the first creation story, Genesis 1, plants are created on the third day.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees that bear fruit with seed in it, ”: plants bearing seed and trees bearing fruit with seed in it

The second creation account starts in Genesis 2:4.

Now no shrub had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—

Ive eliminated the context to highlight the specific details for emphasis. Given the sheer enormity of agrarian reference and theme in the OT/NT, I find that here Scripture is emphatically giving weight to the process of seeds not having dropped yet of their own accord and sprung up to be the first generation. If Im right ...God plants the first generation in Eden from the pleasing crop of firstborn seeds of Creation. While He does bless Created things with fruitfulness in Gen 1 , Gen 2 indicates that the cycle has not been fully released from production on its own authority- hence the missing sun and components of the water cycle. This version of interpretation rightfully places Gen 2 as conditional detail of Gen 1 and seeing a conflict hinges primarily - almost exclusively- on the reading of 'no shrub appeared..." as meaning absence of all genera of plants - despite the immediate proximity of Scripture referring directly to the planting process.
IMO just a farm boy....

GenemZ · Oct 2, 2020

Pathfinder627 said:
I tagged this as funny, but don't mean it as disrespect. Just never thought of that.

I find "funny" as respectful!....

GenemZ · Oct 2, 2020

Oaktree125 said:
?

Time for coffee!? ... grinding organic beans makes for the best!

-57 · Oct 2, 2020

genez said:
I see where you confusion was...

The Lord provided the animals first before giving Adam his helpmate.

Why? To teach Adam an important lesson with.

For Adam most likely spent years in observation and naming all the animals. Most likely Adam spent some time with each creature to study them so he could come up with a name.

For the first thing Adam did when the Woman was FINALLY brought to him?

He INSTANTLY knew what was to happen. How else could he know that man was to leave his father and mother and cling to his wife and become one flesh?

How could he know that? He was the first man! No fathers. No mothers!

How could he know? Because....

Adam observed animals reproducing and having offspring. By time Eve was given to him, Adam was thoroughly educated in the " birds and the bees."

You can believe that but it's not biblically supported. In other words it's an unsupported speculative opinion.

It could be as simple as bringing a cow to Adam and Adam called it a cow and Adam knew a cow would not make a good wife......but I would be speculating.

-57 · Oct 2, 2020

It appears as if God made plants on day 3 then made more plants when He created the garden.

GenemZ · Oct 2, 2020

-57 said:
You can believe that but it's not biblically supported. In other words it's an unsupported speculative opinion.

It could be as simple as bringing a cow to Adam and Adam called it a cow and Adam knew a cow would not make a good wife......but I would be speculating.

I feel sorry that you do not have the capacity to understand what I said.

-57 · Oct 2, 2020

genez said:
I feel sorry that you do not have the capacity to understand what I said.

I understood what you said...I feel sorry that you need to invent the between the line narrative.

GenemZ · Oct 2, 2020

-57 said:
I understood what you said...I feel sorry that you need to invent the between the line narrative.

Do you believe insight is not allowed?

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and
more in knowledge and depth of insight." Phlpns 1:9

It says that a believer's love abounds more and more in knowledge gained, and the insight grace produces with that knowledge.

Try again? Its a beautiful insight!

The Lord provided the animals first before giving Adam his helpmate.

Why? To teach Adam an important needed lesson.

For Adam most likely spent years in observation and naming all the animals. Most likely Adam spent some time with each creature to study them so he could come up with a name.

For the first thing Adam did when the Woman was FINALLY brought to him?

He INSTANTLY knew what was to happen. How else could he know that man was to leave his father and mother and cling to his wife and become one flesh?

How could he know that? He was the first man! No fathers. No mothers!

How could he know? Because....

Adam observed animals reproducing and having offspring. By time Eve was given to him, Adam was thoroughly educated in the " birds and the bees."

...sad to see you missing the boat on that insight. Its a real gem.

grace and peace!

Philip_B · Oct 2, 2020

genez said:
Why? To teach Adam an important needed lesson.

This is not apparent in the text, and so such a meaning must be inferred, and presumes a particular revelation as to the mind of the divine.

genez said:
He INSTANTLY knew what was to happen. How else could he know that man was to leave his father and mother and cling to his wife and become one flesh?

More meaning inferred to the text.

genez said:
Adam observed animals reproducing and having offspring. By time Eve was given to him, Adam was thoroughly educated in the " birds and the bees."

More meaning inferred to the text.

Whilst you seem to dismiss the idea of stories of origin, which are a literary form in most societies, I believe we are robbing the text of its true form. Stories of origin are often untidy, they are on a National Geographic live report on the events, and we don't know everything. One of their functions to to provide a narrative that help us accept the social givens. They tell us something of how people believe things should be. They are symbolic stories, and they carry great truths, yet it is not essential that they be understood as history.

I don't want to rob the text of the power to speak to the depth of my humanity. I would much prefer to embrace the untidiness, the complexity, and yea even indeed the mystery that is found in understanding something of the character of humankind and our purpose being found in our relationship with God.

genez said:
Adam observed animals reproducing and having offspring. By time Eve was given to him, Adam was thoroughly educated in the " birds and the bees."

I suggest that part of the purpose of the text is to tell us not to act like the animal kingdom, to recognise that we are gifted way beyond the animal kingdom, and that in reality there is now real value in discussing the order of creation, and much more point in discussing the author of creation, and the purpose of creation.

I do take the text as sacred, and I believe it has much to teach us, but not by pretending it is something other than what it is.

GenemZ · Oct 2, 2020

Philip_B said:
This is not apparent in the text, and so such a meaning must be inferred, and presumes a particular revelation as to the mind of the divine.

ADAM was the first man. No parents. How could he possibly know what a father is? What a "mother" is?

How could he possibly know that a man will leave his father and mother and cling to his wife?

He could not, unless something he observed with the animals took place. While naming the animals, most likely he either named them himself, or learned from the Lord the principles of what a father and mother is. The animals were the great teaching tool for what was to come for mankind.

Sorry if that's too difficult for you to understand. Others have. And, others will continue to get it.

have a nice day...

public hermit · Oct 2, 2020

Pathfinder627 said:
The real work of the Kingdom starts in the here and now, not elsewhere. This is also why there are so many calls for down to earth justice throughout the scriptures. Not meditations and contemplation about other realities. But improving life here first.

Why can't both be the real work? I think the tradition has been that righteousness and contemplation go together. As Jesus put it, it takes both prayer and fasting to rid ourselves of evil. The action and contemplation go hand-in-hand, maybe?

Pathfinder627 · Oct 2, 2020

public hermit said:
Why can't both be the real work? I think the tradition has been that righteousness and contemplation go together. As Jesus put it, it takes both prayer and fasting to rid ourselves of evil. The action and contemplation go hand-in-hand, maybe?

You're right. I was ultimately trying to say there's a balance, but got carried away with putting emphasis on one myself. Apologies.

public hermit · Oct 2, 2020

Pathfinder627 said:
You're right. I was ultimately trying to say there's a balance, but got carried away with putting emphasis on one myself. Apologies.

Please, no apology is necessary. I'm on board with everything you were saying, I only had that one question. I was mostly just thinking out loud, haha.

GenemZ · Oct 2, 2020

Philip_B said:
More meaning inferred to the text.

Which text? English?

-57 · Oct 3, 2020

genez said:
For Adam most likely spent years in observation and naming all the animals.

This "insight" is not biblical. ...For Adam most likely spent years in observation and naming all the animals.

It is rejected.

-57 · Oct 3, 2020

genez said:
or learned from the Lord the principles of what a father and mother is.

Probably what happened.

GenemZ · Oct 3, 2020

-57 said:
This "insight" is not biblical. ...For Adam most likely spent years in observation and naming all the animals.

It is rejected.

See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no
bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many." Heb 12:15

There are Two Creation Stories in Genesis

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