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GenemZ

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It's not that I don't believe lol...I just find it fascinating..and realize how much more he is.
For what its worth....


When it says... In the beginning God created the heavens and earth? The Hebrew indicates that the heavens and earth were instantly created "out from nothing." Just the same Hebrew wording is used for creating man male and female in God's image. That too, was to create the male and female SOULS of man. Not the body. For in the second chapter we do not see God any more creating "out from nothing." For it says that God rested from such creating. Instead, the Lord got creative with what had been created out from nothing, and like an artist (and scientist) He molded and formed the body which was to become Adam for the soul that was created in Genesis 1:27. That created soul was breathed into that body's nostrils.

Genesis One... "Bara" ... The Hebrew when used in relation to God, means to create something out from nothing.

Genesis Two... "Jatsar" .... means to take something that had already been created (earth) and to 'mold and form' it into something. In this case, to provide the body for Adam's soul to live in.

There were not two creations (as some claim). Only two different phases to this same creation we live in.


grace and peace...........
 
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Bruce Leiter

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You make the Genesis account unnecessarily complicated and hard to understand. What's wrong with its present order? I don't see much reasoning in your writing that would support your rearrangement of Moses' writing. You do believe that Moses wrote Genesis, don't you? Or do you subscribe to the theory of various documents of different writers, which are pieced togther by some editor? The New Testament refers to "Moses and the prophets," and I do too.

Why do you want change the order?
 
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mmksparbud

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This is totally false!! There is only one account of creation, Gen 1 is in chronological order, Gen 2 is a retelling with added details, it is a Jewish way of writing and not unusual. There are actually several stories of the Exodus---that in way means there were several Exodus's. The birth of Christ is told in 4 different ways---it is not 4 different Christs'. There were not an undetermined number of people created in Gen. There were only 2---Adam and Eve. And it is what Jesus and the diciples believed and taught.
 
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jhwatts

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I do think Moses is the author as a matter of fact I view Genesis different than most. I dont see it as a collection of stories but one single story. Most see the Tower of Babel or Noah's ark as two different stories. I see them all as a single story. I see the Tower of Bable as part of the creation and my view flows those stories into the creation and are part of it and not something seperate.

Look at Genesis 6:4

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

In those days is referring to Eden, the first creation. Look at Ezekiel 31. The cedars of Lebanon are symbolic of giants. Then, also after that refers to the second creation. If you take the daughters of men and they have children, these would be the children of men. These children of men are also mighty men. Now let's go down to the tower of Babel.

Genesis 11:5
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

and

Genesis 10: (8-9)
8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.

So you see, the Tower of Babel is letting the reader know thay the ones building it are the offspring of the first creation and they are still here. So in the future when you see the term mighty men in the old testament it is pointing towards the offspring of one of the inhabitants of Eden.

Christ often spoke in parables and riddles so I think it isnt as obvious as one thinks.

As far as the order goes, if you go back and look at Genesis 10:31, it states that there different tongues but as you go to Genesis 11 it stated the world was all one tongue. So here we see Genesis is not always in chronological order and so it isnt incorrect to show the creation stories are out of order.

There are many things in the Bible that supports this idea. I've show a few, including the ark one in the previous post. It seems that people have formulated a view based on popular ideas and so it hard for people to look at it differently.

There is something to this and I would be glad to offer more evidence if people are interested.
 
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jhwatts

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There are two creations. The first is made from the dust of the earth and the second made in the likeness of God.

I Corinthians 15

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 
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mmksparbud

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Baloney. There is only one creation, God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed His breath of life into him, and he became a living soul. It is one account in 2 different chapters, nothing strange about it---because Jesus ' birth is told in 4 different books, doesn't mean He was born 4 different ways.
 
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GenemZ

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You have not been taught the creation from the Hebrew. Some pastors can, and will.

Reading English translations leads to subjective wanderings and allowing one to create their own story.

And, since you believe no one can understand it better than you can? It gives you a sense of license for creative writing class to work with the fantasy of your own choice. Since you can't understand it? No one else can either. So? You have the right to your own opinion.... (or, something similar to that.)


The Hebrew of Genesis One and Two utilize different Hebrew words (which indicate entirely different operation) .... The body in Genesis Two was not created like the male and female (souls) found in Genesis 1:27. Matter of fact, Genesis Two begins by saying God stopped creating and rested. Rested from how male and female were created in Genesis 1:27.

If you have an honest interest? I would be glad to take the time to explain.
 
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jhwatts

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No baloney. There are two creations and two Adam's. It's in Genesis 1-5. One Adam is made from the dust of the earth and second in the likeness of God.
 
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mmksparbud

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No baloney. There are two creations and two Adam's. It's in Genesis 1-5. One Adam is made from the dust of the earth and second in the likeness of God.


You are under a false teaching. Gen clearly states that God stopped creating after the 6th day---there can be no more creations after that. You are contradicting the scriptures and teaching false doctrines.
 
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jhwatts

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You are under a false teaching. Gen clearly states that God stopped creating after the 6th day---there can be no more creations after that. You are contradicting the scriptures and teaching false doctrines.
Your opinion. The sixth day is part of a recreation not the original creation.

What makes you so sure there is only one creation and it is a literal 7 days? You really have one chapter in the Book of Genesis to base this off of and issues with it. For example, Genesis 1:28. They are told to replenish the earth the same way Noah (Genesis 9:1) was after the flood. What are they replenishing the earth from in Genesis 1:28 if there is only one creation.

It makes perfect sense to me. They are replenishing the earth from the destruction first creation.
 
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mmksparbud

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That is what the bible says. Jesus never mentioned a second creation only one. He should know---it was He who was the creator.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

You apparently have never read Genesis in the original Hebrew. KJV uses the kings English which can give a slightly different sounding meaning to some Hebrew words. The actual Hebrew words will sound very foreign, but this is the language that was used by Moses and all the Hebrews. God spoke to Moses in his own language, not in the King's English. You also have to understand that in the origal language in the OT and in the Greek of the NT--0-there were no chapters and verse designation--0that is a modern concept. Gen. 1 and Gen. designations---did not exist in the original language---they were written on scrolls, with only book designations. It was all one long narrative---no verses no chapters.
We have them into verses and chapters for easier reading.

Gen 2

1 and~they(m)~will~be~FINISH(V) (וַיְכֻלּוּ / wa'ye'khu'lu) the~SKY~s2 (הַשָּׁמַיִם / ha'sha'ma'yim) and~the~LAND (וְהָאָרֶץ / wê'ha'a'rets) and~ALL (וְכָל / wê'khol) ARMY~them(m) (צְבָאָם / tsê'va''am)

RMT: and the skies and the land and all of their armies were finished,

2 and~he~will~much~FINISH(V) (וַיְכַל / wai'khal) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) in~the~DAY (בַּיּוֹם / ba'yom) the~SEVENTH (הַשְּׁבִיעִי / hash'vi'i) BUSINESS~him (מְלַאכְתּוֹ / mê'lakh'to) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~DO(V) (עָשָׂה / a'sah) and~he~will~CEASE(V) (וַיִּשְׁבֹּת / wai'yish'bot) in~the~DAY (בַּיּוֹם / ba'yom) the~SEVENTH (הַשְּׁבִיעִי / hash'vi'i) from~ALL (מִכָּל / mi'kol) BUSINESS~him (מְלַאכְתּוֹ / mê'lakh'to) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~DO(V) (עָשָׂה / a'sah)

RMT: and Elohiym finished in the seventh day his business which he did, and he ceased in the seventh day from all his business which he did,

3 and~he~will~much~KNEEL(V) (וַיְבָרֶךְ / wai'va'rekh) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) AT (אֶת / et) DAY (יוֹם / yom) the~SEVENTH (הַשְּׁבִיעִי / hash'vi'i) and~he~will~much~SET.APART(V) (וַיְקַדֵּשׁ / wai'qa'deysh) AT~him (אֹתוֹ / o'to) GIVEN.THAT (כִּי / ki) in~~him (בוֹ / vo) he~did~CEASE(V) (שָׁבַת / sha'vat) from~ALL (מִכָּל / mi'kol) BUSINESS~him (מְלַאכְתּוֹ / mê'lakh'to) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~SHAPE(V) (בָּרָא / ba'ra) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) to~~Identifies the verb form as infinitive.">>~DO(V) (לַעֲשׂוֹת / la'a'sot)

RMT:
and Elohiym exalted the seventh day and he set him apart, given that in him he ceased from all of his business which Elohiym shaped to make.


He stopped all His business---He ceased creating. There was no second creation.
 
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jhwatts

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I am very familiar with John 1 and Proverbs 8: (22-31) The beginning here is the first creation. This is Eden.

Also, Jesus no doubt know that creation is not as straight forward as most think.

Mathew 13:35

35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Your proposed perspective on the Genesis 2 really doesn't help your case at all. What is His buisness? Is this the first or second creation. It says nothing about planetary creation and the word armies implies lots of people or beings are already here before he began. I think implication here is the second creation.
 
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mmksparbud

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The business of the creation that lasted 7 days. You are vastly mistaken and the bible has proven it--however, some people are not able to face reality. Even presidents have that problem.
 
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jhwatts

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The business of the creation that lasted 7 days. You are vastly mistaken and the bible has proven it--however, some people are not able to face reality. Even presidents have that problem.

I still dont see it. Just like you say "The buisness of creation that lasted 7 days." That's just your perspective, that could be interpreted a million different ways and so I just dont se it. You say the Bible proves it but not shown anything that Genesis that really does and you still have not reconciled my Genesis 1:28 question.
 
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mmksparbud

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You are free to believe anything you want. It is obvious to me and I will continue to follow what the bible says and not the fantasies of men. There is no interpreting of it millions of ways. God is not scatterbrained, stupid nor ignorant---He said it plainly enough. Believe what you want. Soon, you will know. There is no Gen. 1:28 question, except in your own mind.

RMT: and Elohiym exalted them, and Elohiym said to them, reproduce and increase and fill the land and subdue her, and rule in the fish of the sea and in the flyers of the skies, and in all the living ones treading upon the land,

There is nothing to question.
 
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