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There Are Three Harvests

Enow

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There are three harvests that makes up the whole of the Kingdom of God.

There is a pre tribulational harvest: then a post tribulational harvest: then after the defeat of Satan at the end of the milleniel reign harvest.

The problem with the topic of the "rapture" is that Jesus said it would be hidden: not that there are three raptures since it is at the pre tribulational harvest would there be a need for the taking up of the bride.

In any event: read this singular verse below by His grace.

Matthew 13:33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

So the kingdom of heaven is hid in three measures of meal until the whole be leavened.

As you read the verses below: see the three harvests:

#1. Christ the firstfruits:

#2. They that are Christ's at His coming

#3. And then cometh the end when death will be defeated.

These three harvests will make up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 15: 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 

Manasseh_

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There are three harvests that makes up the whole of the Kingdom of God.

There is a pre tribulational harvest: then a post tribulational harvest: then after the defeat of Satan at the end of the milleniel reign harvest.

Christ said the wheat and tares grow together, not separated but once when he returns
He said when the net is cast the good fish are kept and the bad fish are cast out
Christ said, there are 10 virgins all together when the bridegroom comes and the 5 foolish virgins have the door shut on them
Christ said that the good servants and the bad servants are all given talents at the same time, when the master returns the good servants are rewarded for their efforts and the bad servant that buried his talent was doomed.
In all of his parables referring to a "harvest" only one truth is seen, both the righteous and wicked remain together until he comes to separate them in only ONE harvest.

It appears your 3 harvest scenario isn't going to work according to Christ's parables

The problem with the topic of the "rapture" is that Jesus said it would be hidden: not that there are three raptures since it is at the pre tribulational harvest would there be a need for the taking up of the bride.
The problem with the pretrib rapture is not what Christ said, it's with the doctrine itself, it's a lie, an invention everything about it has to be implied............

in the same exact way you did here when you took one of Christ's parables about the kingdom and the leaven which was intended to show how the kingdom would start small but keep building until the point it covers the whole earth and he rules as King of kings, it has nothing whatsover to do with a pretrib pickup of saints or 3 different harvests, doesn't even mention that............you just suggested it


 
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NightHawkeye

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There are three harvests that makes up the whole of the Kingdom of God.
How about these three harvests:

1) Christ - already described as "firstfruits" (I Corinthians 15:20)
2) The 144,000 "firstfruits", who apparently are priests in the millennium
3) The final harvest

:wave:
 
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Enow

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Christ said the wheat and tares grow together, not separated but once when he returns
He said when the net is cast the good fish are kept and the bad fish are cast out
Christ said, there are 10 virgins all together when the bridegroom comes and the 5 foolish virgins have the door shut on them
Christ said that the good servants and the bad servants are all given talents at the same time, when the master returns the good servants are rewarded for their efforts and the bad servant that buried his talent was doomed.
In all of his parables referring to a "harvest" only one truth is seen, both the righteous and wicked remain together until he comes to separate them in only ONE harvest.


You did noticed that the foolish virgins left behind, finally did have oil for their lamps and were shining?

In the same voice that the prodigal son will be returning because he is still son.

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

So when does that happen when Christ returns with the saints to do this first: defeat Satan and his armies?

When does this seperation occurs that differentiates the vessels unto honour from the vessels unto dishonour in God's House?

2 Timothy 2: 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

When does this happen when a believer is rebuked severely for defiling the temple of God?

1 Corinthians 3: 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

So one is still saved as in he is still His in spite of God "destroying" him.

Hebrews 12:5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Seems like those left behind would endure a scourging by going through the great tribulation.

You did see God addressing the churches in Revelation: right?

Revelation 2: 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Seems this judgment on the House of God at Thyatira was given to avoid the great tribulation.

Revelation 3: 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

And this exhortation came with a promise to avoid the great tribulation as the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world which is the mark of the beast to try them that dwell on the earth: which suggest the House of God at Philadelphia would not be on this earth at that time.

Luke 21: 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So the call to be ready and to prepare oneself leaning on the Good Shepherd is the way to escape what? The great tribulation.

It appears your 3 harvest scenario isn't going to work according to Christ's parables


The problem with the pretrib rapture is not what Christ said, it's with the doctrine itself, it's a lie, an invention everything about it has to be implied............

in the same exact way you did here when you took one of Christ's parables about the kingdom and the leaven which was intended to show how the kingdom would start small but keep building until the point it covers the whole earth and he rules as King of kings, it has nothing whatsover to do with a pretrib pickup of saints or 3 different harvests, doesn't even mention that............you just suggested it

Actually, you took the other parables and assumed that Matthew 13:33 was following the same application when Jesus was referring to another truth about the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 13:33 is the shortest of all parables and yet it did not convey what you said the other parables were about.

Fortunately, believing in the rapture is not a requirment for one to be raptured: being ready and watching with His help and grace is.
 
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Enow

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How about these three harvests:

1) Christ - already described as "firstfruits" (I Corinthians 15:20)
2) The 144,000 "firstfruits", who apparently are priests in the millennium
3) The final harvest

:wave:

#1. firstfruits is pluraled so there are firstfruits with Christ.

#2. These firstfruits are the ones chosen to be witnesses during the great tribulation after the time of the Gentiles came to an end and the despensation of the Gospel will go back to the Jews. This occurred because the falling away has happened, thus the reason why judgment fell on the House of God first to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake, but just as the Jews rejected the Gospel and it went to the Gentiles: so will the Gospel will go back to the Jews because of the falling away from the faith.

#3. I agree that there will be a final harvest.
 
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NightHawkeye

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#1. firstfruits is pluraled so there are firstfruits with Christ.
LOL -- Firstfruits is always pluraled. Kinda like the word "fish", both singular and plural. Plurality must be derived from context?

Kinda how it looks to me ...

#2. These firstfruits are the ones chosen to be witnesses during the great tribulation ...

I agree with that much, Enow ... ;)

#3. I agree that there will be a final harvest.

Nice OP, Enow. Thanks for sharing.


.
 
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Manasseh_

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You did noticed that the foolish virgins left behind, finally did have oil for their lamps and were shining?

No they didn't , they came back with oil too late............the door was still shut and the master said he isn't going to open now because he doesn't know them..............NOT HIS SHEEP, if they were he would have opened the door because his sheep hear his voice, he knows them and they know him.

Actually, you took the other parables and assumed that Matthew 13:33 was following the same application when Jesus was referring to another truth about the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 13:33 is the shortest of all parables and yet it did not convey what you said the other parables were about.

I didn't assume or convey that this parable had the same message, I only showed how you misapplied it
Speaking of the other parables , I noticed you omitted any comment about them in your reply..............I understand, you have to ignore them or your doctrine just won't work , Christ taught that both righteous and wicked are together until ONE return and ONE HARVEST / Separation..............that simply wouldn't do your doctrine much good would it, since scripture is disagreeing with your claim.
He taught the wheat and tares remain together until one harvest.....so again, the only way to refute this is to not refute it, just ignore it.

Fortunately, believing in the rapture is not a requirment for one to be raptured: being ready and watching with His help and grace is.
oh, I've heard that line before.........This is not an essential doctrine to salvation.
Scripture says God is spirit and that we must worship him in spirit and in TRUTH.

So you can't believe lies / false doctrines and still worship God in truth..............that's also addressed in scripture, that's worshiping God in vain..........all for nothing.


 
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Choose Wisely

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There are three harvests that makes up the whole of the Kingdom of God.

There is a pre tribulational harvest: then a post tribulational harvest: then after the defeat of Satan at the end of the milleniel reign harvest.

The problem with the topic of the "rapture" is that Jesus said it would be hidden: not that there are three raptures since it is at the pre tribulational harvest would there be a need for the taking up of the bride.

In any event: read this singular verse below by His grace.

Matthew 13:33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

So the kingdom of heaven is hid in three measures of meal until the whole be leavened.

As you read the verses below: see the three harvests:

#1. Christ the firstfruits:

#2. They that are Christ's at His coming

#3. And then cometh the end when death will be defeated.

These three harvests will make up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 15: 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You are getting warm.....but.......First Fruits is not a harvest.

To understand the timing of the rapture, one would need to understand the parable of the fig tree.
 
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LovedofHim

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There are two fields:

Amo 7:1This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king's share had been harvested and just as the second crop was coming up.

Amo 9:13"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes.
 
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Enow

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No they didn't , they came back with oil too late............the door was still shut and the master said he isn't going to open now because he doesn't know them..............NOT HIS SHEEP, if they were he would have opened the door because his sheep hear his voice, he knows them and they know him.


Only the Lord can put you on pause to re-evaluate your beliefs.

If you want to refer to John 10th chapter, then take note:

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Here is a prophesy concerning the latter days:

1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

So it shows that believers will depart from the faith: does this imply one loses their salvation? No.

The following verses depict how one can be overthrown in their faith and yet this truth is known in verse 19 about the power of God in salvation in Jesus Christ in that they are still His.

2 Timothy 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

If not concinced, then read this about those that were considered wicked and unreasonable men as not having faith, departing from the traditions that were taught of us in how they are not the enemy, but are still brothers: even though there is the commandment to withdraw from them.

2 Thessalonians 3: 1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.....14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Remember the instruction regarding a brother that was a fornicator?

1 Corinthians 5: 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.....4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus....12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So if the church do not do what is required of them to judge within: guess Who will? May you see by His grace and help that verse 5 above is mirroring what God will do when judgment will fall on the House of God first: as it must come first which is the pre tribulational rapture event.

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

May you see God chastening this church at Thyatira as proof of this.

Revelation 2: 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So going back to John 10th chpater, you will see a reference to those left behind that followed a stranger's voice, but they will be made to follow His voice. They were not of His fold because they followed the stranger's voice, and then Jesus said they will be.

John 10: 14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So there is a fold that follows His voice and there are other sheep which is not of that fold but followed the stranger's voice when after the pre trib rapture event, will be made to follow His voice.

So there are the fold that follow His voice: the vessels unto honour:

Then there are the fold that followed the stranger's voice: the vessels unto dishonour.

The two folds are seperated at the pre tribulational rapture event which is when judgment will fall on the House of God.

So that is how those that went out from us were not of us: the first fold that followed His voice, but a stranger's voice.

And yet because Jesus began a good work in them, He will finish it even in those left behind as such excommnication will bring about a reproving fire.

John 10: 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Even though one can argue that the above verses only apply to those that follow His voice: but yet the next two verses declares what? That they cannot be plucked out of His hand: or become unsaved. But what about those that had faith? They had to have faith in order to depart from faith. How then can this be rectified?

The pivotal judgment being that He knows His sheep that follow Him.

Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30 declares how false prophets will come in and mislead many by which Jesus will say: I know ye not: depart from me ye that work iniquity : indicative that He knew them not because of iniquity.

And yet if you reread 2 Timothy 2:18-26: the call to every believer is to depart from inqiuity to be that vessel unto honour in God's House: even instructing in meekness those that oppose themselves in the hope that God will peradventure "recover" them from the snare of the devil before Judgment falls on the House of God.

And so we look at the why those led astray that were left behind: why God would bother to "recover" them.

John 6: 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So that is why there is a need for the pre tribulational rapture event.

Luke 15: 3And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

1 Corinthians 6: 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So that is why the church needs to correct and even excommunicate those that have gone astray: that they may repent and be that vessel unto honour in God's House which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

So if one denies Him: they will be left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event, but even when they believe not due to being misled by false teachings: He abideth in them and cannot deny Himself being in them, and so He will finish His work in them so that the prodigal son will be returning because he is still son, and the lamp will be shining in those foolish virgins as they will be witnesses of the power of God in salvation which is in Christ Jesus as vessels unto dishonour in Hs House when they came to Jesus and believed in Him.

So yes: those left behind were not His sheep because they were following a stranger's voice: but they are of the other fold as He "must" bring them for they have been bought with a price when they believed.
 
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chalkstc

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Enow,

So yes: those left behind were not His sheep because they were following a stranger's voice: but they are of the other fold as He "must" bring them for they have been bought with a price when they believed.

Me thinketh your theology is worse than your eschatology. Jesus was speaking to Jews as His sheep. The other fold He would bring in were the Gentiles from Acts 10. Two peoples = one new fold.

"One fold"
One new man"
"One bread"
"One Bride"
"One Wheat Harvest"
"One good fish gathering"
"One resurrection of the just, called the "First"
One SC "immediately AFTER the trib of those days"
"One last day"
"One last trump"
"One coming as a thief"

All the above at the end of the age or premill.

Frankie
Frankie
 
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Enow

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Jesus was speaking to Jews as His sheep. The other fold He would bring in were the Gentiles from Acts 10. Two peoples = one new fold.

I would hardly consider the Jews as following His voice. Since they have rejected the chief cornerstone: the despensation of the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

Since Jesus referred to thieves and robbers as climbing up another way: John 10:1 or as coming inbetween us and Jesus: John 10:7-9, this would pertain to believers that are led astray, following a stranger's voice.

The other fold that were not of the fold following His voice but following the stranger's voice in the context and meaning of the chapter, would declare that the other fold will be made to hear His voice and be of that one fold and one shepherd.

Since there will be a falling away of the faith: there is a need in light of the stranger's voice to find that lost sheep as He said He had other sheep which were not of the fold of sheep that followed His voice and so how can they be His sheep, unless they were bought? So because of false prophets leading believers astray: Jesus will go get His lost sheep.
 
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LovedofHim

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I would hardly consider the Jews as following His voice. Since they have rejected the chief cornerstone: the despensation of the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

Since Jesus referred to thieves and robbers as climbing up another way: John 10:1 or as coming inbetween us and Jesus: John 10:7-9, this would pertain to believers that are led astray, following a stranger's voice.

The other fold that were not of the fold following His voice but following the stranger's voice in the context and meaning of the chapter, would declare that the other fold will be made to hear His voice and be of that one fold and one shepherd.

Since there will be a falling away of the faith: there is a need in light of the stranger's voice to find that lost sheep as He said He had other sheep which were not of the fold of sheep that followed His voice and so how can they be His sheep, unless they were bought? So because of false prophets leading believers astray: Jesus will go get His lost sheep.


Jesus confirmed the covenant with many of Israel when he was here, He will confirm the covenant with many more of Israel when He returns.

Two folds = Jews and Gentiles
 
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chalkstc

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Enow,

I would hardly consider the Jews as following His voice. Since they have rejected the chief cornerstone: the despensation of the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

Must you be reminded that the disciples were all Jews? Who did He tell them to originally preach to? The lost sheep of the house of Israel. Who was Peter told to preach to in Acts 10?

Who are the "neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ?"

Two groups of Biblical peoples in the Scriptures................Jews and Gentiles outside of Christ and ?Jews and Gentiles in Christ called the church of God.......


1 Cor 10:32​
32​
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

KJV

Frankie
 
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chalkstc

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Two folds = Jews and Gentiles

One fold when the Gentiles were added................


John 10:16​
16​
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

KJV

Frankie
 
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Enow

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Jesus confirmed the covenant with many of Israel when he was here, He will confirm the covenant with many more of Israel when He returns.

Two folds = Jews and Gentiles

Yes. I know. But in the course of time: the prophecy was fulfilled that the Jews had rejected the chief cornerstone, thereby the despensation of the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

Because of the falling away of the faith: in that regards is why the despensation of the Gospel will go back to the Jews after the pre tribulational rapture event: hence the 144,000 witnesses.

In regards to what I was posting about in John 10th chapter: the sheep that follows His voice are the believers in Christ: Jews and Gentiles, as the despsensation of the Gospel went to the Gentiles. The other sheep that was not of the fold is referring to those led astray by false prophets that came in between them and Jesus: John 10:7-9 or led them up another way: John 10:1-5.

The sheep of His fold and the other sheep that Jesus has are referring to the chaste bride of Christ and those foolish virgins that were not ready, respectively as they both centers around the false prophets: the fold that follows His voice thus not being led astray and the other sheep that went astray because they were following a stranger's voice.
 
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Enow

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Must you be reminded that the disciples were all Jews? Who did He tell them to originally preach to?

No. I do not need to be reminded.

We are talking about the application of John 10th chapter.

The two folds centers around how one folds does not follow after false prophets and the other fold did, but the ones that did follow false prophets will be made to follow Him which I have placed that result after judgment has fallen on the House of God which is the pre tribulational rapture event.

Signifying Jews and Gentiles as the two folds does not apply in regards to relating to Jesus because of false prophets coming inbetween them and Him or as the scriptures says "all those that come before him are thieves and robbers": John 10:7-9

This has to refer to those that are already believers and in relation to not following and following false prophets.
 
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zeke37

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IMO belief in a pre trib rapture will be exactly the Christian theology
that leads to the falling away from faith spoken of in 2Thes2 and 1Tim4 and other places...

Christ and Paul and others teach a Christian warning, to Christians.
To think that these Christian warnings were only for Jews or unbelievers or heathen or the unfaithful, is ridiculous.

if they say, He is here or He is there, believe it not.
for false Christs, and THE false Christ shall appear first, to deceive if it were possible even the very elect

the rapture/gathering to Christ, is after all these end time events
as it is when the dead are raised.

even pre trib's favorite verses prove the timing as that when the dead are raised...
the time of the dead.....

and of course that is seen in Mat24's trump, 1Thes4's trump, 1Cor15's trump, and the 7th trump of Rev11.

no coincidence.

hey, I used to believe in a rapture pre trib style for a bit....
but the more i studied it and prayed about it, I realized that the truth is post trib


the false Christ comes first to seduce the bride.
that is why 5 of ten do not get in the door....
only the elect get in.

as for who is left behind....that is taken from Mat24
and the ones taken, were taken in the flood
The ones left behind were left working for the Lord

and i do not know how any one can say otherwise

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

so here is the example....

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

so, those that were taken, were eating/marrying etc,
and they were taken in the flood of Noah's days

likewise there is a flood coming in the end time test.
it is from the dragon's mouth and some Christians(virgins) will be taken in the flood....

but some will be left and still work in the field....
some will be left and still be grinding at the mill...
and below, some will be left as watchman on the rooftops....
who will still be working when the Lord returns????
who will be taken?????


42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

the big deception is that the false Christ comes first...
and he deceives a large portion of the church
if you "think" Jesus is here already,

then you would not be watching for His return

Satan comes first to deceive us
don't let him....pre trib is the set up for his lie

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

as for 10 virgins, 5 went away and missed the grooms arrival/wedding.
5 were left and got married
 
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chalkstc

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Because of the falling away of the faith: in that regards is why the despensation of the Gospel will go back to the Jews after the pre tribulational rapture event: hence the 144,000 witnesses.

Dispensationalism is false doctrine. Sounds like you have the "bouncing ball" syndrome:)

Frankie
 
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Enow

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IMO belief in a pre trib rapture will be exactly the Christian theology
that leads to the falling away from faith spoken of in 2Thes2 and 1Tim4 and other places...

No. The falling away from the faith when believers believe a lie thus God would permit a strong delusion to occur is when they preach another spirit to receive which is happening now as there are many false teachings on receiving the Holy Spirit "again", resulting in many signs and lying wonders.

That is why judgment must fall on the House of God first. 1 Peter 4:17-19

And yet when Christ returns with the saints: it is to do battle.

Strange, is it not that when Satan is defeated: then there is that "first resurrection" of the saints. What saints did Jesus come back with?

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I submit that the saints Jesus came back with were the chaste bride that was ready for the Bridegroom at the pre tribulational rapture event and the "first resurrection" was pertaining to the second harvest of the people that went through the great tribulation as the "rest of the dead lived not again till the thousand years were finished". That was why the reference to the "first" of the first resurrection has meant: not that it was THE first resurrection: but the first resurrection out of the group of people that went through the great tribulation.

That is the only scenario that can explain by His grace, how Christ can return with the saints to dfeat the devil and His armies and yet after that defeat came the first resurrection of those saints thyat came out of the great tribulation.
 
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