• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Theory on the origin of evil

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,406
1,352
54
Western NY
Visit site
✟155,771.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others



Good point that angels apparently were created before "carbon based life". I'd never "caught that" in Genesis before you brought it up here.

This statement is to state what God's manifold purpose for the creation is from the beginning to the end, so as to see a big picture of the creation that includes all dispensation of time and times as a means to an end.

Yes, God is the Alpha and Omega. He and His plan "encapsulate" all of creation.

Again, the angels are created things with the capacity to become unthankful.

Agreed - yet "darkness upon the face of the deep" still has to have predated them. We know this because there was a time before any of them fell. God did not create anything "evil". God by nature is incapable of doing that.

Respectfully, the verse says the creation was made subject to vanity (Void of Truth/knowledge of God). Man's transgression was prompted by Satan's cunning lie which appealed to vanity and subtly introduced a false and corrupt image of god.



Good "working description" of the fall.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
11,016
6,439
Utah
✟852,117.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others

The consequence of Adam's disobedience ... consequence of a choice made.

"Satan was cast out of heaven just before Jesus commenced the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth." This followed upon the last day (Tuesday before the cross) that He preached in the temple. John 12:31"

Satan stole the position which rightfully belonged to Adam who was the legitimate
representative of the planet. He usurped Adam’s rightful throne. This is the reason why Jesus called Satan “the ruler of this world” John 12:31. When Adam chose to obey Satan, he became Satan’s subject for we are subjects of the master whom we choose to obey Romans 6:16


Judgement (condemnation) for satan occurred at the cross.

John 16:11

and about judgment, because the prince of this world (satan) now stands condemned.
 
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
5,869
3,304
67
Denver CO
✟239,560.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Agreed - yet "darkness upon the face of the deep" still has to have predated them. We know this because there was a time before any of them fell. God did not create anything "evil". God by nature is incapable of doing that.
Respectfully, the darkness upon the face of the deep is about earth's purpose in the creation, so it did not predate them. We should consider that the angels are watching something about to be played out in a temporal reality on earth that will inform them of Who God is and also inform them of who they are in relation to Him. Therefore the darkness on the face of the deep and God's Spirit moving on the face of the waters means that God is going to reveal His Light in the midst of a darkness so as to cause the created to worship Him in Spirit and Truth through the revelation. What will be revealed in the deep is God Himself.

The darkness is not the evil, it is the absence of God's Light, the knowledge of God as pertains to the value of His Spiritual Person and Character. The evil is the product of vanity in the creation which occurs in the void of this Light/knowledge. For example, how did Satan fall? Because he became vain due to his beauty in contrast to others. Had he been thankful to God for the beauty rather than counting himself better than others in vainglory (as if he deserved it or earned it), there would have been no fall from his high place. His words indicate that he assumed God was worshipped because God had the greater power rather than God was the goodness.

Remember that the angels fell because they left their former stations in an misinformed envy of those lower than themselves. Hence Satan despised the fact that Adam was content in his station under God while Satan was not, even though Satan was higher than Adam.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single

Here is one question I have. If Satan -this evil being- was an angel who fell (note the word) from heaven.. and our planet became this flawed-sinful habitat because Adam and Eve brought it in.. then why didn't heaven change and become just as flawed?

Also, doesn't Satan rebelling and falling mean that sinning is possible in heaven? If that is the case then how do we know that other angels like gabriel, saints like Peter, Paul and Mary, or people we knew are still up there when sin can actually be committed in heaven?

Also, that fall. Why would angels just fall to earth exactly. Especially since this solar system of ours is so huge and has about 8 other planets? How did they fall exactly to this planet? Unless the writers of this story thought the earth was flat and heaven was just at our skies then i just don't get the whole entering of our earth.

I can go on and on as to how Satan makes no sense, and contradicts too many christian-theological beliefs.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟161,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

I think evil is nothing, it is lack of good. If good doesn’t exists, then there is emptiness and that emptiness, or darkness is called evil. But this doesn’t mean that all darkness or emptiness is evil. Evil is possible when good (God) is rejected, or good is not present. If we believe God has always been, then also good has always been. Evil becomes possible after God allowed Him to be rejected.

... "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."…

I think that is not necessary a fact, especially in spiritual level.
 
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
5,869
3,304
67
Denver CO
✟239,560.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Will you elaborate?
It cannot ever be proven that what is eternal is eternal. Likewise it cannot ever be proven that what is Holy is Holy. Hence all things are built on faith/trust that the Eternal is Holy and trustworthy. If the created thing has a corrupt image of god the created thing becomes corrupt and dies.
 
Upvote 0

BrotherD

Thus Saith The Lord
Mar 10, 2019
380
338
Tennessee
✟45,135.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced

We must always look to the scriptures for answers.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

He created evil, but he cannot sin. He also gave everybody free will. He wouldn't be a loving God if he forced us to worship him.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
79
Northwest
✟56,102.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Reason would have it that if the heavens and earth are "finished" as is declared in Genesis - this would include the "3rd heaven".
I agree. That’s what I said. The 3rd heaven was created sometime before the physical universe was created.
That say nothing concerning when the 3rd heaven was created.
Part of the omniscience of God, obviously would be knowledge of the laws of physics. Yet until God "creates" something - those laws are theory only (just as evil is theory only until something is created).
Agreed.
Is "darkness" the same thing as "evil" or are they defined by "cause" and "manifestation"? "Evil" is a manifestation of "darkness" enacted upon the physical world once a creature disobeys.
I don’t believe that darkness is the same thing as evil.

Darkness needs no cause. It is simply the absence of light.
"Physics" in a physical universe become reality as soon as God "does" something. They (like evil) are a byproduct of God's action.
Agreed.
Agreed. Yet the creation of this universe was indeed God's "initial go around". There was not another universe that predated this one. (Which I think you would agree with.)
Not another physical universe perhaps. But the 3rd heaven is in the spirit realm and not the physical.
Of course He’s eternally existent.

Being eternally “generated” is not the same as being created.

The Spirit is said to proceed from the Father and He is said to proceed from the Son. Make of it what you will.
Therefore we have no idea (and never will) what being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal and immortal living in glory with two other entities who are of the fullness of what ever God is - would be like.
If you hadn’t have said “and never will” I might agree with you.

“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12
That knowledge is above our pay grades. LOL
Perhaps not above your future pay grade.
Agreed.
Agreed.

In speaking to another person here you said:
Good point that angels apparently were created before "carbon based life". I'd never "caught that" in Genesis before you brought it up here.
I’m not sure why that would be since I have pointed it out in my previous post..
 
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,126
6,875
California
✟61,200.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private

Maybe his sin wasn't complete until the cross...when he and his minions thought they were actually gonna get away with killing Him.

*Universe's Dumbest Criminals...
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,406
1,352
54
Western NY
Visit site
✟155,771.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others

Except the Scripture tells us to interpret it against itself not against what an ancient culture thought of it. Isaiah 28:10+


We in this day and age have access to the acquisition of information that no other generation has EVER had in the past! That is a HUGE blessing.

Yet, if what you say is true, than anyone who does not have the education or access to the ancient texts could not be saved and this is not true! Knowledge of Greek and Hebrew doesn't save anyone. God does.

Let us not be vain in our gifted position of 21st century technology.


And Praise the Lord because God transcends culture and time I can do this.


The obvious answer to "who created formless universe" is "God".

Where did the darkness come from? That is the question this theory is addressing.

All truth still comes from God, whether it's in the form of "step logic" or "block logic", "scientific method" or what ever doesn't matter.

"Step logic has nothing to do with the text." - according to who?

If God uses "step logic", why would that automatically be wrong to use as a method of Scriptural research? "Step logic" does not negate what you are saying about salvation being attested to in the text. There's a lot of truth buried in the Bible and this lends itself to a variety of applications to uncover it.
 
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,126
6,875
California
✟61,200.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private

Reminds me of the dark army of:


They weren't necessarily evil, just not in the light...awaiting release...

*Yeah, I'm a Ringie
 
Reactions: 1213
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,126
6,875
California
✟61,200.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private

Can never be proven in time...maybe...?

*Scripture is proof enough, for me though...
 
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,126
6,875
California
✟61,200.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
"Physics" in a physical universe become reality as soon as God "does" something. They (like evil) are a byproduct of God's action.

Maybe these are the angels...?
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
79
Northwest
✟56,102.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That was a rather longish answer to a
About ¼ as long and quit readable judging by my responses.
If God is all-good,,,,how does He have evil in Him to think about?
He doesn’t – nor did I say He did. I thought I covered that.

Oh wait – here it is:
One of those attributes is His inherent "knowledge of good and evil". That is - not evil itself but the "knowledge" of evil as well as good.
You're getting your theology into the discussion... We know God is sovereign and will do what He wishes to do. Also you have free will in quotation marks so you theology is coming through even there.
How can a person not consider and present their theology when they’re talking about the source of evil? When talking about something in the politics’ portion of the forum perhaps. But not in a section that has “theology” in it’s very title.

I always put “free will” in quotes when talking theology.. The reason is quite simple.

So long as donkeys speak Hebrew, Caiaphas prophesies the words of God, and men move by the Holy Spirit write the very words of God – in fact, so long as we live and move and have being in God - “free will” will always be relative.

Whatever theological bent you see coming through that is simply the facts of life according to the scriptures.
So if God knew the consequences,,WHY did He create these beings (us) who would have to suffer so much?
That’s a subject to be considered by every Christian I suppose. I already gave you my opinion on the matter.
We all know God is sovereign -- not just you --- but is He also a wicked and mean God?
Some not so much apparently.

No – He is not a wicked and mean God. Did someone say He was?
I don't know any theology that teaches God is ONLY a just God with little concern for His beings...except one.
Which one would that be?
If God thinks something...does it happen?
No – God sends forth His Word to accomplish what so ever He desires to be done.

I thought I covered that.
Flaws galore.
Flaws – undoubtedly – but you haven’t pointed any of them out.
We all know God is sovereign -- not just you --- but is He also a wicked and mean God? .
Some more than others apparently.
..but is He also a wicked and mean God? Most of us would say NO. .
No one, with the exception of Satan perhaps, would say that God is wicked and mean.
God IS LOVE…God IS MERCIFUL……..God IS JUST……….God IS HOLY. .
Of course. Did someone say otherwise?

Look –although the OP did, I haven’t chosen to list any theological group that I might be affiliated with.

But – having been around the block a few times here in the forum – judging by your belligerent attitude, I believe you are an anti-Calvinist and you assumed that I am a Calvinist because I referenced the “elect of God” in my post as well as the before mentioned “sovereignty” word.

If this is the case – let me put your mind to rest. I am not a Calvinist. God’s elect is a term God uses in the scriptures to describe His people. It is not something that Calvinists or any other group made up.

Nor is the sovereignty of God something which is in the theology of Calvinists only. As you so rightly pointed out, everyone believes in the sovereignty of God.

But as I so rightly pointed out – apparently some more than others.
 
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,126
6,875
California
✟61,200.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private

 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,406
1,352
54
Western NY
Visit site
✟155,771.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I don’t believe that darkness is the same thing as evil.

Darkness needs no cause. It is simply the absence of light.

You very well may be correct that "darkness" is not the same as "evil" if evil is simply what comes to be the physical manifestation of darkness in the world.

Darkness has to have a cause because before God created anything, darkness did not exist. There is no shadow of turning in God, so darkness had to come from somewhere; as a result of / within the context of the created order.

This has to be the case because if one claims it is not; the only thing that can mean is that it was inherent in God; and THAT is heresy.

But the 3rd heaven is in the spirit realm and not the physical.

Yet spiritual entities still have substance because they are created things. Obviously they don't have the same substance as carbon based life has; but angels were not eternally existent either, so thus the reason for a 3rd heaven.

Now what you say about angels watching the creation of earth; (I think it was you who said that; but may not have been?) in order to have God's glory demonstrated to them in the creation of life. This would only make applicable sense if they were not aware they were created also. I'm pretty sure that isn't the case though.

Angels being categorically different than humans, both in their knowledge as well as the essence of what they are; on top of the fact that they are not redeemable raises some interesting questions about these differences. That though, would be the subject of another thread.

Being eternally “generated” is not the same as being created.

Well then you would need to define what this means.

The Spirit is said to proceed from the Father and He is said to proceed from the Son. Make of it what you will.

I looked this up: It's John 15:26 - when the comforter has come whom I will send unto you from the Father....

"from" (the Father) is a term of proximity not "generation". The Father "sent" the Son. The Son was "conceived" by the Spirit. They work in conjunction but are separate persons.

If you hadn’t have said “and never will” I might agree with you.

“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12

The reason I say we never will, is because it is impossible for us to "become God". It's not like we get absorbed into this cosmic river that is "God" and therefore we become one in the same.

"I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." is not talking about the essence of what God is as an entity. Note it says "I shall know fully." but does not define "know what" fully, other than "as I am known". Because we are created entities there is a limit to the fullness of the knowledge that we are known; and these limits are because we are created.

Now the second person of the Trinity shares our "createdness"; and so we shall fully know Him in His createdness as He knows us in our createdness. Because we are created, we do not have the capacity to know God in His eternal essence.

Follow me here?

I’m not sure why that would be since I have pointed it out in my previous post..

May be wording? Sometimes something strikes us a certain way because of our own personal identification of use of language. There are speech pattern similarities. Sometimes it's just as simple of a matter of didn't catch what they were saying because I'm hungry, tired, the dog is barking, the phone rang, my kid is screaming about lute lamas on Fortnight - etc. - LOL - any variety or combination of such factors can cause one to not recognize what another is saying. Don't take it personally.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,406
1,352
54
Western NY
Visit site
✟155,771.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others

Please refer back to posts #176 and #177. These verses were addressed there.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I follow you.
I know you're not speaking about dualism.

If evil came about as a reaction to what God did...wouldn't that mean that evil came from NOTHING?

I think that no matter how you stir the soup, evil will never come out of it.

I just think we can't know...but the conversations about this is always interesting.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You bring up some points which are going to be problematic.

God created the angels, of which one of them turned out to be the enemy. How could God...who is perfect...create something that is NOT perfect? This is a problem. Man makes imperfect things because he has the sin nature in him and this is passed on to everything he makes..even nature has sin in it as per Romans 8:19-22 ...all of creation waits eagerly for the redemption.

I DO believe God created us to have a libertarian free will...the problem still exists: we have free will to choose between two moral choices: One of them is good, and the other one is evil (or sinful)...where did the second choice come from?

It's apparent that evil existed BEFORE God created the angels and Lucifer...THIS is the problem faced by Christianity.

And IF the angels did NOT have a chance,,,then we are definitely stating that God created evil.

Now, in the O.T. (Isaiah 45) it states that God created everything even evil (calamity). We can attribute this to the fact that the O.T. population attributed everything to God...both the good and the bad.

God revealed Himself in different ways and in different times.

I've followed the rabbit down many trails and they all end up with a big sign that says: No Answer Here.
 
Upvote 0