Theology of the human person

[Paidiske]

This is a spin off from here: A Plain Reading of Scripture to pick up some things which are off-topic there.

I'm not really sure how best to phrase the OP, but it might be helpful to start here: how do you understand a human person? How do you see the relationship of body, mind, spirit, and so forth? What do you draw on in forming that understanding?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

To begin with, we'd need to discuss what we mean by "soul."

We know that the soul can be destroyed along with the body Matthew 10:28

Matthew 22:37
And He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.''

The Spiritual and the intellectual are not mutually exclusive, in my view. Is not the intellect part of God's good creation? Are not our intellects redeemed along with our bodies? Will there be no intellect in the resurrection?

The mind and the spirit being separate is not a form of dualism but a form of triunity that of body, soul and spirit. Here's an old thread that speaks about just that for reference if you like. Mind you it got a bit messed up after a site update that added a lot of (#numbers) as did all threads at that time so the (#numbers) are not meant to be there. Here's the link,
The Nous of human spirit that relates to the Holy Spirit

Romans 12:1-2
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart

Psalms 139:13-14
For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well

Numbers 16:22
Moses and Aaron, "…fell upon their faces and said, 'O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will you be angry with the entire congregation?'"

That verse names God as the God of the spirits that all humanity has been created with; a spirit but it remains in a deadened state until regeneration.
....

 

[Paidiske]

I'd start by arguing that the soul isn't a "thing." I'd say that the underlying words in Hebrew/Greek should be translated "life."

 

[Radagast]

I'd start by arguing that the soul isn't a "thing." I'd say that the underlying words in Hebrew/Greek should be translated "life."

I don't see any ground for translating it that way. The Greek word especially has a clear meaning.

 

[Paidiske]

Are you talking about psyche? Because I'd say it's fair to translate that as "life."

 

[Paidiske]

I started this thread in the wrong area - I just moved it to The Kitchen Sink so non-Christians can join us.

 

[Silmarien]

This is a spin off from here: A Plain Reading of Scripture to pick up some things which are off-topic there.

I'm not really sure how best to phrase the OP, but it might be helpful to start here: how do you understand a human person? How do you see the relationship of body, mind, spirit, and so forth? What do you draw on in forming that understanding?

I spend a fair amount of time clawing my eyes out over Philosophy of Mind, but the whole field is such a trainwreck, I am not really sure where I stand. I pay attention mainly to Neo-Scholastics and other modern non-materialists.

I have strong sympathies for dual-aspect monism, i.e., the idea that the mental and the physical are two aspects of the same substance. I have no idea what that might actually entail, except that physical reality is probably not quite what we think it is these days.

I am not sure what to make of spirit one way or the other--I will need to really explore the idea that the soul is the substantial form of the material body, but it is so much Thomist gobbledygook to me right now. I'm reading Thomas Nagel's take on the issue for the moment, though, so it is all panpsychism, all the time.

All in all: MYSTERY.

 

[com7fy8]

Hi, Paidiske I haven't see you for a while. Just in case you want me to go into it >

Our Apostle Paul seems to put us in three parts >

"spirit, soul, and body" (in 1 Thessalonians 5:23).

But Jesus says to love God with all our "heart" and "soul" and "mind" > Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27.

So, we want to deal with how our "mind" is involved in all this.

One thing I think of, right now, Paidiske, is when Jesus says to love, He calls on our heart and soul and mind. And He does not call on our "body" for loving God . . . though I do understand that loving God includes making our bodies "a living sacrifice" > Romans 12:1-2. And I understand that truly loving is a spiritual thing, and so we can consider that the heart and mind and soul . . . for loving . . . are all spiritual in their existence.

But I do understand that ones believe the mind is part of the physical brain. But . . . our Apostle Paul does say,

"and be renewed in the spirit of your mind," (Ephesians 4:23)

And the word of God discerns "the thoughts and intents of the heart", we have in Hebrews 4:12. So, it looks like "thoughts" can be spiritual, and therefore not only at the physical level of our brains. And the heart and mind might not be totally separate, at the spiritual level, if the heart can have "thoughts" and "intents" which we do experience to have in our minds . . . more or less.

My personal take is that the spirit is spiritual, and our spirit includes our heart and our spiritual level of mind and its function. And there are emotions which move us according to our desires of our spiritual hearts; so I would say that emotions are not just physical. And thoughts are involved in how we act on our desires. So, at the spiritual level, the heart and mind are related.

And, in a sense, possibly they can mean the same thing. For example, your mind can have to do with what you mind and what you don't mind . . . what your heart likes and what your heart can not tolerate. Mind is not only a thinking thing.

So, when Paul says spirit and soul and body, I think "spirit" can include one's heart and mind function at the spiritual level. And my personal opinion, Paidiske, is that the "soul" is your spiritual self which can experience what's happening in your spirit, plus what is happening in your physical body. And your body is simply physical, but it can be effected by what is going on in your spirit.

So, your soul is your life in you, then . . . meaning your experiencing you, able to have you experience more or less of what's happening in your spirit and your body.

A carnally minded person is one who minds . . . gives attention mainly to . . . what's happening in one's physical body. Because the person in one's heart wants to experience pleasures which are physical. So, one's spiritual heart is minding if and how one gets pleasure. So, one's heart and mind are related, not totally different than each other. And the carnally minded person's soul is mainly busy with feeling what one wants to feel in one's body; however, the person is suffering frustration and hurts and dominating and dictatorial drives in order to get those pleasures. So, the carnally minded person does have a spiritual level of experience of misery, but might suppose those deeper emotions and reactions are part of one's physical brain function.

But a spiritually minded person is mainly about first being intimate with God and sharing with Him while submitting to how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us "in our hearts" > Colossians 3:15. And so the person is aware of God's Spirit > in union with the person > 1 Corinthians 6:17 < and the spiritual person is busy with sensing and submitting to how our Father personally rules each of us in His own peace, including Philippians 4:5-6.

God's Spirit makes us conscious of being "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17) in His own love "in our hearts" > Romans 5:5. And so, in grace, our main interest is in the spiritual level of loving, I would say. And . . . even in hard things . . . we can, like Paul, have "pleasure" which is deeper than what our bodies are experiencing > 2 Corinthians 12:10. So, the experiencing you . . . your soul . . . is mainly experiencing God and loving spiritually, as much as we are spiritually minded > Romans 8:5-7.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'd start by arguing that the soul isn't a "thing." I'd say that the underlying words in Hebrew/Greek should be translated "life."

Losing life of the soul seems to depend on our following of the Lord after being saved and regenerated. If we lose it now it can be saved. Gaining would seem to me to be in laying it down in reasonable service.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:9
receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

 

[Tanj]

This is a spin off from here: A Plain Reading of Scripture to pick up some things which are off-topic there.

I'm not really sure how best to phrase the OP, but it might be helpful to start here: how do you understand a human person? How do you see the relationship of body, mind, spirit, and so forth? What do you draw on in forming that understanding?

The brain is an organ of the body much like liver or pancreas.
The mind is an emergent property of the brain
There is no such thing as spirit or soul

I draw that understanding primarily from 30 years in medical research.

 

[Adelyn Woodcock]

I believe I have a soul simply because that has been what my grandparents and my parents have taught me. I have a physical body that has a delicate soul that frees itself from the physical form when the body dies.

 

[Tanj]

I believe I have a soul simply because that has been what my grandparents and my parents have taught me. I have a physical body that has a delicate soul that frees itself from the physical form when the body dies.

What do you mean by delicate?

 

[sparow]

I don't see any ground for translating it that way. The Greek word especially has a clear meaning.

This is a topic that confuses me. Soul is the immaterial part of man so it seems me that the translators have miss rendered soul in the early verses of Genesis. God creates Adam but only when God breathed breath into him did Adam become a living soul. In Hebrew breath means spirit which comes from God and returns to God; without the breath of God the soul is dead which means what is called the soul refers to the material part; there is a paradox.

 

[Radagast]

In Hebrew breath means spirit which comes from God and returns to God; without the breath of God the soul is dead which means what is called the soul refers to the material part; there is a paradox.

I don't know Hebrew, so I can't comment on the Hebrew words.

However, you may be being misled by poor translation in the KJV. For Genesis 2:7, modern translations say Adam "became a living being" (NIV, HCSB) or "became a living creature" (ESV).

 

[essentialsaltes]

This is a spin off from here: A Plain Reading of Scripture to pick up some things which are off-topic there.

I'm not really sure how best to phrase the OP, but it might be helpful to start here: how do you understand a human person? How do you see the relationship of body, mind, spirit, and so forth? What do you draw on in forming that understanding?

Human persons are animals. The mind and consciousness is generated by or supervenes on the brain and nervous system. I infer (due to their behavior and my impressions of them) that other animals have minds and consciousness, but not to the same extent (I deem) that human beings do. A cat has more of a mind than a cockroach, and a cockroach has more than a sea sponge.

The mind and consciousness are extinguished upon death.

I have no reason to believe there is any separate soul or spirit, nor that any such thing survives death.

 

[durangodawood]

I'd start by arguing that the soul isn't a "thing." I'd say that the underlying words in Hebrew/Greek should be translated "life."

And what is life in this context?
Is it identity extended through time?
Biology?
Biography?

 

[Winken]

This is a topic that confuses me. Soul is the immaterial part of man so it seems me that the translators have miss rendered soul in the early verses of Genesis. God creates Adam but only when God breathed breath into him did Adam become a living soul. In Hebrew breath means spirit which comes from God and returns to God; without the breath of God the soul is dead which means what is called the soul refers to the material part; there is a paradox.

God breathed into that which He created and "it" became a living being. That does not translate to "it" became Spiritual. Adam was endowed by His Creator with life, and Adam-Eve were blessed, Spiritually; that is, in the perfect embrace of God. That embrace was intended to be eternal. There is a monumental difference between spirit and Spirit.

 

[Winken]

And what is life in this context?
Is it identity extended through time?
Biology?
Biography?

Life IS.

 

[durangodawood]

Life IS.

Not very helpful to me, because so many things ARE. Most things, really. But what distinguishes life in the sense Padiske meant?

 

[Glass*Soul]

The brain is an organ of the body much like liver or pancreas.
The mind is an emergent property of the brain
There is no such thing as spirit or soul

I draw that understanding primarily from 30 years in medical research.

This is what I was planning to say but probably with a lot more words and less clarity. LOL