Theological Arguing; Calling People Heretics and Such

[JTM3]

As we all know, there's a lot of controversy in the church. I'm just posting this to ask the question: Is it really Christian to call people heretcis??

Do any of you agree with what the Catholics did to hundreds of people for daring to question doctrine and believe differently?

Didn't Christ give us ALL the commandment of love?

I'm really not trying to start an argument, but I was just wondering what you guys think of people that don't believe like you. Hindus don't believe the same. Muslims don't believe the same. So why does it look like criticisim is harsher and more violent towards supposedly heretcial groups(WOF)? Shouldn't we be praying for them, and not despising them?

I just post this because I go to a Calvinist school, and I'm WOF (Word of Faith). Granted, some take it too far, and there probably are charismanias out there. But, last semester, I don't remember how the discussion began, but we got on the subject of Pat Robertson, and I'm sure you all him too, and Benny Hinn.

"I can't hardly stand the man." Were my teachers exact words. (Regarding Benny Hinn.) Excuse me? Aren't we suppose to love our neighbors as ourselves? I have no malice toward anyone who believes in Calvinism. But I feel that if I tried to talk to him (my teacher), that he would be very arrogant about it. (Its pointless now, because its a new semester and Doctrine is now Ehtics, thankfully, but hypethetically speaking.)

My point being that there just seems to be an atmosphere of oppression there; I feel that everytime I'm with someone whos not WOF, people of mainline churces; that believe all this absolutely depressing stuff ("God can do whatever he wants;" "God gave me this disease to teach me" blah blah blah. I submit Psalm 78:41 for the first one and Titus 1:2 for the second.)

Anyway, I rambled on just to ask why we can't tollerate each other on doctrine? Shouldn't we care more about loving each other, and let God sort it out? I've been to Kenneth Copelands meetings, their victorious, free, and powerful. And I'm stuck with my chapels every Wednesday and Friday. And from my perspective, at times, they can be depressing, and discouraging. I feel a general sense of oppression there...

As for faith: "We walk by faith and not by sight," 2 Corinthians 5:7

 

[seekingpurity047]

As we all know, there's a lot of controversy in the church. I'm just posting this to ask the question: Is it really Christian to call people heretcis??

Do any of you agree with what the Catholics did to hundreds of people for daring to question doctrine and believe differently?

Didn't Christ give us ALL the commandment of love?

I'm really not trying to start an argument, but I was just wondering what you guys think of people that don't believe like you. Hindus don't believe the same. Muslims don't believe the same. So why does it look like criticisim is harsher and more violent towards supposedly heretcial groups(WOF)? Shouldn't we be praying for them, and not despising them?

I just post this because I go to a Calvinist school, and I'm WOF (Word of Faith). Granted, some take it too far, and there probably are charismanias out there. But, last semester, I don't remember how the discussion began, but we got on the subject of Pat Robertson, and I'm sure you all him too, and Benny Hinn.

"I can't hardly stand the man." Were my teachers exact words. (Regarding Benny Hinn.) Excuse me? Aren't we suppose to love our neighbors as ourselves? I have no malice toward anyone who believes in Calvinism. But I feel that if I tried to talk to him (my teacher), that he would be very arrogant about it. (Its pointless now, because its a new semester and Doctrine is now Ehtics, thankfully, but hypethetically speaking.)

My point being that there just seems to be an atmosphere of oppression there; I feel that everytime I'm with someone whos not WOF, people of mainline churces; that believe all this absolutely depressing stuff ("God can do whatever he wants;" "God gave me this disease to teach me" blah blah blah. I submit Psalm 78:41 for the first one and Titus 1:2 for the second.)

Anyway, I rambled on just to ask why we can't tollerate each other on doctrine? Shouldn't we care more about loving each other, and let God sort it out? I've been to Kenneth Copelands meetings, their victorious, free, and powerful. And I'm stuck with my chapels every Wednesday and Friday. And from my perspective, at times, they can be depressing, and discouraging. I feel a general sense of oppression there...

As for faith: "We walk by faith and not by sight," 2 Corinthians 5:7

Greetings! Thanks for the post, JTM3, I'm sure everyone here will really appreciate it.

It is obvious that your concern is heresy and love. Shouldn't we love people who are heretics rather than call them heretics and criticize them? Well, when it all comes down to it, when someone professes that Jesus Christ is Lord, etc etc, but then says "Oh yah, and by the way, God is the biggest loser in history" (thanks kenneth copeland, for that one), it's not easy to just let something of that sort pass by. I mean, God is seriously offended by sin, as am i, and I can assure you, heresy is a sin. If someone said that Satan is the god of the universe, rather than God Himself, we can't just let that go. We must act, for it is offensive to both God and those who are true believers in Jesus Christ.

Indeed, we are not perfect christians, and we will never be until we are glorified by God, and made into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ. We are going to do things unlovingly. We should do things with love. But, how is anyone to call someone a heretic yet still be loving toward them? It's much easier said than done. I mean, Jesus was quite critical toward heretics, ie. Pharisees, so can't we be critical toward heretics like Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland as well? Now, I'm not saying that we should kill them, like the Roman Catholic Church used to do before, and a bit after, the Reformation. Instead, we should discuss the problem with them, and pray for them. It is only God who will open their eyes to the reality that is in Him and His power and His glory.

Might I add another two cents: Heresy IS a salvation issue. To proclaim faith in Jesus Christ then say that He's a loser isn't going to go well with God. There's a contradiction there. God is not a loser, but He is the sovereign, almighty God, who is glorious and above all names.

I suggest you flee from the Word of Faith movement, because, indeed, it is a heresy. It has so many core falsehoods, and you could see them if you simply read scripture. When people take verses out of context, you will know becuase you have a knowledge of the truth that is in the Bible, and your faith will, therefore, not be shaken by falsehoods, etc. Look more deeply, and see for yourself the false doctrines of the Word of Faith movement.

When we are sent to be imitators of God, we are to be like Jesus. Jesus was very critical of heretics (Pharisees), so we ought to as well, becuase heresy is not something to be played with and left alone.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i think i've answered your question to my satisfaction *grin* in the drawing of boundaries. the major boundary is around the visible church and it is the Nicenan Creed. heretics are outside that boundary yet claiming to be within. (Buddhists are NOT heretics because they don't claim to be part of the invisible Church, Mormons are heretics because they believe in 3 distinct physically embodied gods and claim to be within the pale of historic Christianity)

the minor boundary is around the sister denominations that i think reformed and therefore self consciously Christian and consistently theologically aware. but brothers exists on both sides of this boundary and the use of the word- heretic is not useful with this boundary.

confusing the two boundaries is the source of your dis-ease of the word heretics.

 

[Beoga]

As we all know, there's a lot of controversy in the church. I'm just posting this to ask the question: Is it really Christian to call people heretcis??

Calling people or groups what they are is not unloving. Calling people who are not heretics heretics would be unloving.
Calling someone a sinner or an enemy of God is not be unloving, it is being real and truthful to them and to those around you.

Do any of you agree with what the Catholics did to hundreds of people for daring to question doctrine and believe differently?

On what basis do you compare calling someone a heretic with beheadings, burnings, etc?

Didn't Christ give us ALL the commandment of love?

Yes, but we must define what this means in relation to which people.

I'm really not trying to start an argument, but I was just wondering what you guys think of people that don't believe like you. Hindus don't believe the same. Muslims don't believe the same. So why does it look like criticisim is harsher and more violent towards supposedly heretcial groups(WOF)? Shouldn't we be praying for them, and not despising them?

The WOF movement is probably seen as "wolves in sheeps clothing." It is clearly evident that Hinduism and Islam is non-Christian. However, it is probably seen that the WOF movement disguises itself as christian. As such, it infilitrates the church and leads many astray. This why there is probably more focus on it.

I just post this because I go to a Calvinist school, and I'm WOF (Word of Faith). Granted, some take it too far, and there probably are charismanias out there. But, last semester, I don't remember how the discussion began, but we got on the subject of Pat Robertson, and I'm sure you all him too, and Benny Hinn.

Be very careful about assumptions.

"I can't hardly stand the man." Were my teachers exact words. (Regarding Benny Hinn.) Excuse me? Aren't we suppose to love our neighbors as ourselves? I have no malice toward anyone who believes in Calvinism. But I feel that if I tried to talk to him (my teacher), that he would be very arrogant about it. (Its pointless now, because its a new semester and Doctrine is now Ehtics, thankfully, but hypethetically speaking.)

If Benny Hinn is a wolf in sheeps clothing, then I stand by what your teacher said. If he is this, then I might even go so far as to say I hate him. I would see him as an enemy of God who is fooling and leading Christians away. Now, I would love him by doing good to him and not being disrespectfu.

My point being that there just seems to be an atmosphere of oppression there; I feel that everytime I'm with someone whos not WOF, people of mainline churces; that believe all this absolutely depressing stuff ("God can do whatever he wants;" "God gave me this disease to teach me" blah blah blah. I submit Psalm 78:41 for the first one and Titus 1:2 for the second.)

 

[mlqurgw]

I don't see any love or grace in your post and they are unloving and uncaring... I expected better... but hey!

What where they supposed to say, that Benny Hinn and such are men of God? It should be expected that a WOF would be uncomfortable in a Calvinist school. Especially for someone who is young and hasn't learned to be as sure of himself as he will be when he gets older. We don't know the whole context of the teacher's statement but only that it was taken as harsh by the OP. The question was answered and was done so in an honest manner. You read far too much into what and the way it was said. Actually the OP came across to me as one who asks a question just so they can give you their answer. That is the reason I didn't respond to him. I have litle time nor inclination for those kind of questions.

 

[Beoga]

I don't see any love or grace in your post and they are unloving and uncaring... I expected better... but hey!

Honestly, I think the reason for this is that you expects the posts to be unloving and uncaring, so you are reading this attitude into the posts.

 

[Erinwilcox]

I don't see any love or grace in your post and they are unloving and uncaring... I expected better... but hey!

Christians are to be Christ-like, so of course we must be loving. But, was Jesus always a lovey-dovey, sentimental ball of fluff seeking to always please everyone?

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.


Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Oops, guess not. There are times when Christians must have a righteous anger against those who blaspheme God and His word.

 

[CCWoody]

Christians are to be Christ-like, so of course we must be loving. But, was Jesus always a lovey-dovey, sentimental ball of fluff seeking to always please everyone?

Lovey-dovey Jesus, just another sentimental ball of fluff able to be shaped and molded by anyone to fit their own personal perceptions of what they want in a user friendly deity.

 

[inchristalone221]

Good point Erin.

I would like to submit this. If I were to acknowledge word of faith preaching as acceptable, this would not be in any way a "loving" act. If a man teaches or believes heresy, I correct them out of concern for them and others in the church.

I do not like to characterize the entire movement, because there are good people in the word of faith movement. However, I would like to make one thing very plain: the doctrines of the word of faith movement, as laid out by Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland (among others) are blasphemous heresy.

 

[PastorMike]

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(KJV)


Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
(KJV)

 

[Proeliator]

Preacher Mike, Jesus himself pointed out something very nice about heretics.

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Matthew 12:30

What side do you land on?

 

[CCWoody]

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(KJV)


Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
(KJV)

On matters unimportant to the Christian faith and life, yes.

However, I don't know whether to laugh here or not. You see, in order to inform us that we have no right to judge, you must have already made a judgment yourself against us. So, you do not practice what you preach.

Yet, you are wrong in the first place. We are required to judge others in the faith on matters which are important to the Christian faith:

1Co 6:2-5 GB
(2) Doe ye not knowe, that the Saintes shall iudge the worlde? If the worlde then shalbe iudged by you, are ye vnworthie to iudge the smallest matters?
(3) Knowe ye not that we shall iudge the Angels? howe much more, things that perteine to this life?
(4) If then ye haue iudgements of things perteining to this life, set vp them which are least esteemed in the Church.
(5) I speake it to your shame. Is it so that there is not a wise man among you? no not one, that can iudge betweene his brethren?

Aparently, the Apostle thought it shameful that we could not judge. Else, how are we to know what is idolatry and confront those who claim to be a brother? Or, how are we to know that certain men who claim to be a brother we are not even to greet lest we share in their sin if we do not judge them? And, as already been pointed, out, how are we to protect or children from the wolves of false doctrine?

Perhaps this is why you will not find a single Calvinist church which condones homosexuality or abortion, yet I can walk out of my door and find a host of non-Calvinist ones that condone such things.

Perhaps it best if you quit judging us with your own doctrinal standards and start to practice what you preach. We will continue in our safe churches where we do not allow the free roam of the wolves of false doctrine, homosexuality, abortion, pederasty, etc. etc. etc. without having to be told how unloving we are by those outside of us.

 

[rnmomof7]

Mod Hat.


This forum is in the Denominational Area of CF.

As such debate is not allowed by non forum members

CF rule 2 b. The Congregation subforums only allow debate between people belonging to the Congregation - others can only post fellowship and ask questions.

This area is to ask questions and to discuss . It is not a debate area.

Please observe the CF rules when posting here.

Thanks

Rnmomof7

 

[PastorMike]

On matters unimportant to the Christian faith and life, yes.

However, I don't know whether to laugh here or not. You see, in order to inform us that we have no right to judge, you must have already made a judgment yourself against us. So, you do not practice what you preach.

I didn't judge anyone... all I did was post two verses... I never said a word... if you felt you were being judged then you were being judged by the word...Mike.

 

[mlqurgw]

I didn't judge anyone... all I did was post two verses... I never said a word... if you felt you were being judged then you were being judged by the word...Mike.

That's BS and I think you know it. You had an intention in posting those verses and it was clear what your intention was. If you had simply wanted to post verses then you would have done so in their context.

 

[PastorMike]

I must have touched a nerve to make you lose your sanctification and use language like that... not very becoming for a christian...

 

[inchristalone221]

I must have touched a nerve to make you lose your sanctification and use language like that... not very becoming for a christian...

Are you judging him? Quite unbecoming for a Christian (at least on your seemingly hypocritical view).

 

[Beoga]

I didn't judge anyone... all I did was post two verses... I never said a word... if you felt you were being judged then you were being judged by the word...Mike.

What then was your purpose for posting those verses?
How did you expect us to take those verses after criticising us and calling our actions unloving?

 

[seekingpurity047]

I must have touched a nerve to make you lose your sanctification and use language like that... not very becoming for a christian...

Losing sanctification? Wow....

This whole thing is "not very becoming for a christian." Why do you even bother coming in here? I think the rules are pretty clear. I simply stated that you should observe them and follow them. I have every right according to scripture to tell you that rules are rules, and they are made to be followed, not broken.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[inchristalone221]

I hate to put this guy on the couch, but I think it's a few particular ideas that have crept into Christianity that has led to our relative cultural irrelevance. This is one of them. Without the right to have reasoned disputations about matters of fact, no group can be relevant in critical issues.