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juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
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I disagree. My God is not a god of chaos (1 Corinthians 14:33).

It's not that God is limited by logic, but that he created logic and is self-consistent. In order to be self-consistent, he restrains himself:
Numbers 14:18
Isaiah 48:9
Psalm 8:5

It's not that God is illogical, but that he is sometimes beyond our understanding:
Job 36:26
Ecclesiastes 3:11
Psalm 92:5-6

God creates space and time. Of course God can do things within the limitation of space and time. But God is not limited by both. So is to logic.

If God is logical (only), then we should have no problem to understand God. If so, we ARE god. So God MUST BE beyond logic.
 
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Resha Caner

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God creates space and time. Of course God can do things within the limitation of space and time. But God is not limited by both. So is to logic.

I don't think space-time is a thing, so there was nothing for God to create. With that said, I already agreed that logic doesn't limit God, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You didn't indicate whether you would agree God restrains himself and whether he is self-consistent.

If God is logical (only), then we should have no problem to understand God. If so, we ARE god. So God MUST BE beyond logic.

It would help to give some Scripture to support your position, because it seems you're trying to make your point using logic. Using logic to say God doesn't use logic and so we shouldn't use logic to understand God seems ... well, problematic.

I think your mistake is to equate "logic" with "easy to understand" [edit] and another mistake would be equating understanding with the power to enact.

But that's OK. I'm not really interested in getting into a big debate about it.
 
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juvenissun

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I don't think space-time is a thing, so there was nothing for God to create. With that said, I already agreed that logic doesn't limit God, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You didn't indicate whether you would agree God restrains himself and whether he is self-consistent.

It would help to give some Scripture to support your position, because it seems you're trying to make your point using logic. Using logic to say God doesn't use logic and so we shouldn't use logic to understand God seems ... well, problematic.

I think your mistake is to equate "logic" with "easy to understand" [edit] and another mistake would be equating understanding with the power to enact.

But that's OK. I'm not really interested in getting into a big debate about it.

I thought I addressed the OP properly. Didn't I? If not, sorry to lead you to think about something you don't intend to.
 
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Crandaddy

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Would you care to elaborate? What is "indexical knowledge" and why do you think God doesn't have it?

Basically, an indexical is a proposition or linguistic expression that can refer to different things in different contexts. For example, the proposition that “my CF username is Crandaddy” is indexical because its truth value depends on who's saying it; I'm the only person who can know that proposition because I'm the only person who can truthfully believe it. God can't know that “my CF username is Crandaddy” because God's CF username is not Crandaddy.


I also don't think God can have knowledge from the indexical perspective of “now,” because knowledge that pertains to “now” (such as what's happening right now, or what time it is right now) requires the knower to know from within the context of time, and I deny that God exists within time. To be clear, I don't deny that God knows all the circumstances of what we perceive as “now,” but I do deny that he knows them as temporally occurring right “now,” as we do.

What is "propositional knowledge" and why doesn't he have that?

A proposition is the content expressed by a statement that can be either true or false. It's not the statement itself, but rather the underlying meaning that the statement expresses. For example, the English statement “it's raining” and the German statement “es regnet” both express the same proposition because they both have the same meaning, and that meaning can be either true or false.


I don't think God's knowledge is propositional because propositions seem to be formed from concepts, and it seems those concepts are obtained by abstracting and learning them from the natural world. If God is immutable (as I say he is), then his knowledge can't change by learning anything, and so it follows that if propositional knowledge is always learned, then God can't have propositional knowledge.


Another reason is that propositional knowledge seems to me a derivative, and thus less-than-perfect, way of knowing things. An example might be the best way to explain what I mean here, so let's consider a tree (whatever kind you like, it doesn't really matter). How do we know that tree? We know it by forming concepts of it, and then by assembling those concepts into propositions about the tree. So then how does God know that tree? Does he have knowledge of a “Platonic horde” of every possible true proposition about the tree? To me, that just doesn't seem very plausible. It seems more plausible to say that rather than having knowledge about the tree, God simply knows the tree itself -- directly, immediately, and comprehensively -- as if it were itself an idea in his mind. I think that when we learn (i.e., form propositinal knowledge) about the tree, what we're doing is forming our own ideas (via abstraction and conceptualization) from something that already has a sort of ideal nature in and of itself.

Why doesn't God think?

It seems to me that thinking always occurs by working through thoughts sequentially over time. If so, and if God doesn't exist in time, then God doesn't think. I don't think he needs to -- he just knows everything all at once in a single timeless instant.
 
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Resha Caner

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Basically, an indexical is a proposition or linguistic expression that can refer to different things in different contexts. For example, the proposition that “my CF username is Crandaddy” is indexical because its truth value depends on who's saying it; I'm the only person who can know that proposition because I'm the only person who can truthfully believe it. God can't know that “my CF username is Crandaddy” because God's CF username is not Crandaddy.

I also don't think God can have knowledge from the indexical perspective of “now,” because knowledge that pertains to “now” (such as what's happening right now, or what time it is right now) requires the knower to know from within the context of time, and I deny that God exists within time. To be clear, I don't deny that God knows all the circumstances of what we perceive as “now,” but I do deny that he knows them as temporally occurring right “now,” as we do.

OK. It seems a bit abstruse, but I've got no reason to object.

I don't think God's knowledge is propositional because propositions seem to be formed from concepts, and it seems those concepts are obtained by abstracting and learning them from the natural world. If God is immutable (as I say he is), then his knowledge can't change by learning anything, and so it follows that if propositional knowledge is always learned, then God can't have propositional knowledge.

I think people go to extremes with the idea of immutability and paint themselves into a corner for no good reason. The idea that God doesn't need to learn is OK to some extent, but I think you're conflating it with ideas of experience to create an unnecessary and Scripturally unfounded extreme.

It seems to me that thinking always occurs by working through thoughts sequentially over time. If so, and if God doesn't exist in time, then God doesn't think. I don't think he needs to -- he just knows everything all at once in a single timeless instant.

Though I would agree with you semantically that God doesn't "exist in time", I think we would disagree on what exactly his relationship is to time. Even moreso, I would disagree with our ability to say much at all about how he thinks.

You would get along well with elopez.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Sometimes the best theodicy is forgetting about it, and dancing instead.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth"

William Purkey (quoted from http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/dance )
 
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