Theistic Evolution?

Montalban said:

That's what it is; that which is within us that connects us to God.

That's about as much detail as I can give

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Do you believe the rest of the universe - including other self-aware lifeforms - is essentially disconnected from God?

LOCO said:

One cannot measure the soul.

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Nor did I ask you to. I asked for a definition, such as the one you gave directly below:

The Catholic notion of the soul aligns closely with the Jungian concepts of the 'unconscious'.

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This is a concise and accessible working hypothesis that we can actually discuss. (Especially since my own perspective is very much influenced by Jungian concepts.)
I'm not sure that the unconscious is something that essentially differentiates us from other animals: after all, even species that are not self-aware operate by means of a mind that, for all intents and purposes, is closely tied to the collective "spiritual history" of their species. Just like a sleepwalker can perform all kinds of learned and instinctual tasks without being conscious at the time, non-self-aware animals basically move exclusively in the unconscious sectors of the mind, lacking a full-fledged conception of "self".

If there existed no unconscious, then people would know only conscious notions, and would appear like programmed robots, i.e. they would be soulless creatures...which is curiously much like what we see in todays world of materialism and celebrity worship.

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It's curious that you should reference materialism/consumerism, as most advertising is aimed almost exclusively at the unconscious, appealing to hidden desires and implementing subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) symbols to bypass the conscious mind altogether.

I grant you that without the unconscious, our "self" would be perfectly deterministic, not allowing for any escape from the patterns that have been ingrained in it.

The unconscious represents a big moral problem for Christians. It contains both evil and good, both subhuman content and content of spiritual nature. The Holy Spirit can manifest via the unconscious, and can be said secretly to reside in there. It is therefore risky business to speak disparagingly about the unconscious, I suppose. One can speak disparagingly about the pope, but one should take care not to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, because it is living spirit.

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I think the trick is not to vilify the "subhuman content", but to transform it into something better. "Love your enemies" does not only apply to external manifestations of adversity. The key to besting your Shadow is to smother it with affection, and thus robbing it of its potentially negative power.

Tit 1,15: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. "

Jane_the_Bane said:

Do you believe the rest of the universe - including other self-aware lifeforms - is essentially disconnected from God?

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If they don't have souls, yes.

Montalban said:

If they don't have souls, yes.

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How do you determine whether a soul is present or not?

Jane_the_Bane said:

How do you determine whether a soul is present or not?

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How does anybody? All we have are theories, philosophies, and theologies.

Unless we are willing to take people's word for it, from those who claim to interact with "souls" unseen by the human eye. Due to my experience, I have to go with an animistic pov, that there are souls in not just living things but inanimate objects as well.

I don't see any real conflict with Christianity, as the Bible doesn't spell stuff like this out. Popular Christan superstition can throw a fit, but if Man was indeed created in the image of God, it's our souls that look like Him not our bodies IMO. Just because animals and such have souls, doesn't mean that the soul of Man is not special.

Tobias said:

How does anybody? All we have are theories, philosophies, and theologies.

Unless we are willing to take people's word for it, from those who claim to interact with "souls" unseen by the human eye. Due to my experience, I have to go with an animistic pov, that there are souls in not just living things but inanimate objects as well.

I don't see any real conflict with Christianity, as the Bible doesn't spell stuff like this out. Popular Christan superstition can throw a fit, but if Man was indeed created in the image of God, it's our souls that look like Him not our bodies IMO. Just because animals and such have souls, doesn't mean that the soul of Man is not special.

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How do view the "fingerprint"?
Even idententical twins who share the same DNA do not have identical fingerprints.


The soul is the self, the "I" that inhabits the body and acts through it.
Without the soul, the body is like a light bulb without electricity, a computer without the software, a space suit with no astronaut inside.
With the introduction of the soul, the body acquires life, sight and hearing, thought and speech, intelligence and emotions, will and desire, personality and identity.
not only humans have a soul.
(This is from an article by,
Yanki Tauber,c/o Chabad.)


What man can redeem my soul?
No man.

Robban said:

The soul is the self, the "I" that inhabits the body and acts through it.

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Inhabits how?

Without the soul, the body is like a light bulb without electricity, a computer without the software, a space suit with no astronaut inside.
With the introduction of the soul, the body acquires life, sight and hearing, thought and speech, intelligence and emotions, will and desire, personality and identity.

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Modern science has discredited vitalism. There doesn't appear to be any "life force" animating the body. The body is itself animate. This requires the introduction of breathable air, edible food, and drinkable fluids, not some sort of ghostly "astronaut".


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist said:

Inhabits how?



Modern science has discredited vitalism. There doesn't appear to be any "life force" animating the body. The body is itself animate. This requires the introduction of breathable air, edible food, and drinkable fluids, not some sort of ghostly "astronaut".


eudaimonia,

Mark

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What,s up Mark too easy? well of course it has to be complicated otherwise it,s a non- runner.
Do we have to rembember to breathe?

Edit, changed the"you" to we, better choice IMO.

Robban said:

What,s up Mark too easy?

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No, not too easy. Unsupported, and even contradicted, by evidence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist said:

No, not too easy. Unsupported, and even contradicted, by evidence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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No worries Mark, science will get there in end, just that they take the long way around.

Robban said:

No worries Mark, science will get there in end, just that they take the long way around.

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I think it was St. Augustine who once said something along the lines of: "If you, fellow believer, don't know what you're talking about, better keep your mouth shut, lest you make us all look like idiots by association."

This might be a case where that piece of advice is applicable. (Just sayin'...)

Jane_the_Bane said:

I think it was St. Augustine who once said something along the lines of: "If you, fellow believer, don't know what you're talking about, better keep your mouth shut, lest you make us all look like idiots by association."

This might be a case where that piece of advice is applicable. (Just sayin'...)

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Thank you, you are your usual friendly self.
I am not associated with Augustine in any way, so he has nothing to worry about.

I know in Islam, everything has a soul, as everything glorifies God. Trees, sand, atoms, animals, all glorifies God and has a soul.

AskTheFamily said:

I know in Islam, everything has a soul, as everything glorifies God. Trees, sand, atoms, animals, all glorifies God and has a soul.

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To carry on a little bit from what I previously quoted from Yanki Tauber,
"In truth, not just the human being, but also every created entity possesses a "soul" Animals have souls, as do plants and even inanimate objects; every blade of grass has a soul, and every grain of sand
Not only life but also existence requires a soul to sustain it- a "spark of G-dliness" that perpetually imbues its object with being and significance.

AskTheFamily said:

I know in Islam, everything has a soul, as everything glorifies God. Trees, sand, atoms, animals, all glorifies God and has a soul.

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Hey, I like it! It sounds about right.


I do not believe that a soul is what animates the body. My experience with other souls far outweighs my understanding of how things are so. But I tend to believe that spirit matter and physical matter are somehow intertwined. Even that perhaps with the Big Bang, both were created simultaneously, and coexist on slightly different dimensions or planes of existence (or something like that!)

We know that after the Big Bang physical matter condensed into shapes and fusion produced the various elements. Over great amounts of time we now have objects made from various combinations of the elements. And eventually Life as well. Meanwhile, spirit matter also changed and condensed, and individual consciousness sprang into being and "souls" were born.

I think souls have an awareness and are conscious beings. Most are still joined to the physical realm, and are intimately connected to something tangible. Those connected to living items, have the advantage that they can live vicariously through their plant or animal. The further evolved the nervous system, the more "in touch" with the physical realm they can be.

With theistic evolution, it is possible to conceive that the development of life happened in order to accommodate the needs of the many souls that inhabit the Earth. That consciousness and self awareness in animal intelligence, might just mimic the same traits developed in souls. This becomes confusing, because with my soul consciousness I can connect with a tree who has no brain nor ability to speak. But then with my physical mind I can reason out the mysteries of this problem, and formulate words to express it to the rest of you. The two modes of consciousness are very similar, which is probably why the psychic abilities are classified by their similarity to physical senses. (Clairaudience is the ability to "hear", clairvoyance the ability to "see", etc.)


Most souls do not do well when disconnected from a physical body. This accounts for ghosts and demonic possession. There also has to be some control over which soul gets placed into which body, and the regulating of how many are allowed to do so, which is where I believe God comes in. I feel we are set here for a purpose, and that there are indeed good reason to live in bodies that have highly developed intelligence. The Christian life explains to me why we are what we are, and what God is up to on our behalf.

Montalban said:

[W]hat you're saying is that even when we were say some primitive aquatic being we had souls making us different from all other primitive aquatic beings?

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Apparently so, yes! A human is a human is a human. And only humans have a human soul.

But I don't stipulate that we were necessarily "primitive" then.

Peace,

Bruce

BruceDLimber said:

Apparently so, yes! A human is a human is a human. And only humans have a human soul.

But I don't stipulate that we were necessarily "primitive" then.

Peace,

Bruce

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But we weren't human, that's the theory of evolution!

What you're saying is you believe in theistic evolution by a means of evolutionary change that I've never heard of before.

That even in the primordial soup some single-celled life had a soul and was human.

Jane_the_Bane said:

I think it was St. Augustine who once said something along the lines of: "If you, fellow believer, don't know what you're talking about, better keep your mouth shut, lest you make us all look like idiots by association."

This might be a case where that piece of advice is applicable. (Just sayin'...)

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What did Homer say?

Jane_the_Bane said:

How do you determine whether a soul is present or not?

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Jesus came to restore us because we sinned. Our nature had fallen.

Jesus didn't come to restore foxes because foxes had fallen.

I'm not aware of Jesus teaching that foxes had souls

Montalban said:

Jesus came to restore us because we sinned. Our nature had fallen.

Jesus didn't come to restore foxes because foxes had fallen.

I'm not aware of Jesus teaching that foxes had souls

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I don't remember any references to foxes falling from grace and thus being in need of redemption, either.

"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." (Mt. 9,12)