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No I am trying to get you to join the dots and come up with a clear argument I can address
Indeed.
But why is animal death before the fall a problem? Does Genesis say the animals were created immortal? Does the bible say anywhere that animal death was the result of the fall?
We could look at the way Moses interpreted the days in Genesis as a lesson teaching Sabbath observance, but remember, we were talking about death before the fall. That is what I was referring to when I spoke of "Your problem here ..."
So why do animals die then since they cannot sin and do nothing to earn the wages of death? Were the Ephesians physically dead before they became Christians? You were dead in your transgressions and sins Eph 2:1 NET. Paul said he died when he first sinned Rom 7:9 And I was once alive apart from the law, but with the coming of the commandment sin became alive 10 and I died. Sounds like the wages of sin here too. Paul sinned and he died. But he was still alive physically years later when he wrote the letter.
If animals cannot sin you have the same problem here as you have with the wage of sin verse. First look at who this death spread to.
I pointed you to a list of these traditions in my last post.
Have a read of the other list of the ten commandments in Deuteronomy 5, and look at the Sabbath command. Here te illustration of the Sabbath command is not the days of creation, but the Exodus from EgyptEspecially Exodus chapter 20:11.
So you don't interpret the days in Genesis literally?
I love Genesis 2:17, because literalists either have to interpret death spiritually or have a non literal interpretation of 'day'.
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Not sure the ground suffered though. Cursing the ground Adam was going to farm was a punishment for Adam. What you need to show from scripture is that animal death is a result of the fall, but the bible doesn't say that anywhere.
It is always tempting to read more into scripture than it is actually saying, thinking by readin as much as possible into the text we are taking it as seriously as possible. But the bible frequently talks of people who sin being 'dead' "you were dead in your trespasses and sin", but Paul wasn't writing to zombies. When we read about death in scripture we need to try to understand what kind of death it is talking about, whether it is physical or spiritual or indeed both. But you can't simply assume it refers to both.
I think we need to differentiate between our theology, how everything we understand from scripture fits together in our minds, and what the bible actually says.
Or it could means that of all the animals God cursed the serpent. We find construction in Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female. It doesn't mean the pairs of animals were brought on the ark more than the ones left outside. Interesting take on the verse though
God could have created animal mortal and still wiped them out in the flood.
I don't think you are getting to the heart of the problem, if death comes through sin, how can animal die? However if the wages of sin Paul talks about is spiritual death and the death that "spread to all men because all sinned" is spiritual death, then Paul isn't talking about animal here and animal death has nothing to do with the fall.
Thinking and reading is called studying. Anyway we are not disagreeing here. But the death in Genesis means both because neither one happened yet. Death when being taught by Paul is about spiritual deathbecause he was talking to people who did not understand spiritual death. They knew physical death. He didn't say, "newsflash:all bodies will cease to exist one day".
Interesting take on the verse though
. But the whole earth which was placed in our hands lives and dies due to us. Not fair to them, but we do not know the whole reason.
All part of the natural world God created.
Actually the bible doesn't say there was no rain until the flood. The flood account is the first mention of rain, but that doesn't mean it was the first rain ever. Genesis describe the red adamah soil Adam was formed from and to which he returned to till after Eden as being cursed, not the whole earth being cursed. And the curse was that it would produce abundant plant life for Adam, just not the kinds of plants adam wanted to grow, but thorns and thistles. There is no hint of plants suddenly becoming mortal after the fall, let alone animals. death being the result of the fall
That is what you are reading into the text. There certainly wasn't spiritual death because man hadn't sinned yet, but you don't know from the text that there wasn't physical death, because the text simply doesn't say that.
Yes physical death has always been used to explain spiritual death, because we understand physical death we see it all around us. It is a very effective metaphor and analogy for spiritual death and corruption. Which is interesting, because Genesis seems to assume Adam understood what death meant when God warned him not to eat from the tree.
I was simply showing you another interpretation that is consistent with the text. You thought the flood somehow showed the animals were cursed by Adam's sin, but it simply does not follow.
Yet the flood account used the same Hebrew construction. If the Hebrew doesn't support your interpretation, it probably means you are reading things into the English translation. If you want translations that donj't go down the road of 'more' or 'above' check out
The problem is, you are puzzling about the reason God did something the bible never says he did. Nowhere in the bible does it say animal death is the result of the fall. It is not even that Paul does not describe how death spread to animals, but the way he explained that death spread couldn't effect animal anyway. Animal death from the fall is simply not a biblical teaching.I try my best. Thanks.
Okay. I do not know why it would. There are many things God does that I do not understand. I am only 5'7". Why? God could have made me 5'9", but the Bible doesn't tell why He did this. But it does say I am fearfully and wonderfully made...not developed (evolved) by the way
