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Theistic Evolution is Unbiblical!

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Calminian

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Here we go with the geocentrism strawman. And now you're laying slavery at the feet of literalism.

Both slavery and geocentrism have nothing to do with a literal approach to the bible. Slavery in particular had to do with a lack of understanding of the term as it was used in bible. As I mentioned before, slavery in ANE culture and slavery legislation in the Bible were initiated by the slave. (This fact may also be helpful in understanding the metaphorical used of the term in the N.T. when wrestling with issues like free will.) A literal reading of the Bible does not support the type of slavery that went on in early america—specifically men being made slaves, not by their own will, but by the will of another.

Geocentrism OTOH is never mentioned in scripture. It does mention sunsets and rises and relative movement, but nothing about orbiting patterns of objects in space. It is literally true that the sun stopped in Joshua's time from our point of reference. There is no literal problem here. Modern astrophysicists use terms like sunset and sunrise and they do so accurately.

rmwilliamsll said:
It is this level where the Princetonian hermeneutic has a weakness. The concentration that many have at criticizing a wooden overly literally hermeneutic misses its mark,

The problem was not wooden literalism either. It's a simple matter of a lack of understanding of God's Word as a whole, and probably some stubbornness in wanting to be compatible with modern majority thinking.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Both slavery and geocentrism have nothing to do with a literal approach to the bible

i have read at least 200 sermons from the antebellum South and greatly disagree with you. try looking at a few of my references online:

http://www.ysursa.com/history/Reference pages/civil war/proslavery_defense.htm
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text...ext;idno=ABT8113.0001.001;view=image;seq=0001
http://www.christianethicstoday.com...ons of Slavery By William E. Hull_043_05_.htm
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cach...merican civil war" presbyterian history&hl=en

all the best believing scholarship i have read over the last year i've been at this study says that the hermeneutic is the crucial element in the puzzle.

i have a reading list at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...8/ref=cm_aya_av.sylt_sylt/002-1766950-5229600
that might help with your studies on the topic as well.
if you are interested perhaps there is a better place to take the discussion, rather than to hijack this thread.

.....
 
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Calminian

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What exactly is it you disagree with? I said american slavery and biblical slavery are two different things and the Bible doesn't support american slavery. You disagree with that??

rmwilliamsll said:
all the best believing scholarship i have read over the last year i've been at this study says that the hermeneutic is the crucial element in the puzzle.

Who in the world said anything about hermeneutics? Are you confusing the terms hermeneutic with literalism? A good hermeneutical approach is the find out the meaning of words as the biblical writers understood them. Don't you agree?

rmwilliamsll said:
if you are interested perhaps there is a better place to take the discussion, rather than to hijack this thread.

The issue in this thread is a figurative vs. a literal approach to Genesis. This seems to be pretty much on target but I’ll let the OPer decide if it’s off topic.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Who in the world said anything about hermeneutics? Are you confusing the terms hermeneutic with literalism? A good hermeneutical approach is the find out the meaning of words as the biblical writers understood them. Don't you agree?


it is hermeneutics that describes the process of going from words to meaning. Usually i think of the words "extract meaning" but i am finding i dislike that way of expressing the hermeneutical task. Literalism is either a particular hermeneutical technic for (instance the) narrative genre or a style/genre within a specific hermeneutic, take your pick. It is not a full blow hermeneutic itself(hence the reason figurative or allegorical often is opposed to literal), but rather a part of one.

"the meaning of the words in the context of the first writers/readers" is one crucial element of the grammatical-historical hermeneutic, perhaps even it's most distinguishing mark. (usually as opposed to critical-grammatical hermeneutical theories)

What exactly is it you disagree with? I said american slavery and biblical slavery are two different things and the Bible doesn't support american slavery. You disagree with that??

this is the way Noll describes as the 3rd way:
A third, and the most complicated, response was held by some abolitionists and moderate emancipationists. They conceded that, while the Bible did indeed sanction a form of slavery, careful attention to the text of Scripture itself would show that the simple presence of slavery in the Bible was not a necessary justification for slavery as it existed in the United States. ... this argument required a movement from the words of the Bible to theories about how the Bible should be applied to modern life, and it often seemed indistinguishable from the next response. (The fourth response) was to distinguish between the letter of the Bible (which might be construed to allow slavery) and the spirit of the Bible (which everywhere worked against the institution)."

it is also the way most of the online defenders of Scripture seem to answer their opponents who use slavery as an example of the evil that can be incorporated into or justified by religion. see: tektonics and j.p.holdings arguments (unable to find the links online to post)
essentially their argument revolves around the word slavery, like the creation-evolution debate often revolves around the word 'yom'. What does it mean? the problem is that meaning is contextual and hermeneutics supplies the rules for building that context.

what the problem is that simply stating that slavery(OT/NT) != slavery(american south) does not explain the passion with which the institution was defended by the church and her ablest theologians. nor does it get to the heart of their arguments. it remains on the surface without looking at the deeper issues, which is unsatisfactory, at least to me.

likewise i find H.Ross's arguments that day(24 hrs) != day(ages) lacking for exactly the same reasons. thus why the extension of the ced debate into geocentricism and slavery seem so natural to me, same arguments, same crucial hermeneutics, same problems. just different domains.
(in geocentricism the argument is: set stands still != geocentricism due to 1)cultural elements 2)language of appearance )


...
 
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Biliskner

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rmwilliamsll said:
1-how would Adam have known what the curse meant if he didn't see death? it would be simply an empty hollow word.
...

I haven't seen resurrection. Yet it is not a hollow word to me. Is that your argument?

rmwilliamsll said:
2-if Jesus' sacrifice undoes physical death then why isn't my pet dog saved? he has the breath of life, is a vertebrate, etc etc.
...

it undoes physical death? where in Scripture does it say so?

 
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Biliskner

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that argument is flawed on so many metaphysical levels.

i have paygan friends that say: "without evil you can't see good so for good to exist you must have evil first" and on first impression that indeed looks impressive, but from Scripture, what is good is what God says is good, nothing more, nothing less. God says, it happens, and God says it is good. winner.

i have a suggestion: AiG is "asserting" no death before Fall because... not because it's a "good philosophical argument" to be dogmatic about, but maybe (just maybe) that it might be... true?

do you believe we will have Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ?
or do we live just 1000000x more than today so it "just" looks like eternity????

and if you believe in eternal life why? have you see it? the way you say Adam "had" to witness death before he understood "the word" in its fullness?
 
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Biliskner

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gluadys said:
Yes, I do disagree. I have not seen a biblical basis for this assertion.

I do, here it is:

Ro. 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God
to be revealed.
Ro. 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Ro. 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Ro. 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
Ro. 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Amen.
 
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Biliskner

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rmwilliamsll said:
you might as well make eating eggplant wrong since it is purple and not green. after all God gave green things to eat, not purple.....
...

the photosynthetic tissue of the eggplant is green. i believe they call that the tubular structure that we fry (mmm!) and eat - IE: potatoes.

green=photosynthetic=energy for plant=plant (by Gen1-2 defintion).
green=photosynthetic=energy for plant=eggplant grows=plant.

p.s. don't eat the leaves of potato plants and/or green potatoes 'cos the alkaloids have fatal effects
 
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Biliskner

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mhess13 said:
Boy are you really thinking to much TRYING to complicate simple verses.

tell me about it. i'm getting more of a headache trying to follow some of these ... errrrrrr...... "expository" Bible readings than i am thinking about measuing gravity waves from quantum fluctuations that distort the very fabric of space-time creating a moebius strip.
 
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Biliskner

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gluadys said:
But as history or science, they simply do not cut the mustard.

The Word of God (including all of Genesis) is a double-edge sword. If it can't cut mustard I don't know how it is going to cut into the heart's of evil men.
 
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Biliskner

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grmorton said:
Given that dogmatism is adherence to a belief system or set of dogma, science is anything but dogmatic. It is just following evidence.

that might be true during the time of Galileo and Newton but science has been polluted like a stinky river over the past 3 centuries.
the only "pure" science i see now is physics, and perhaps (maybe) mathematics/chemistry. the geological/biological science however are debatable (with exceptions of lab based biology, cutting up rats; gene experimentation; growing plants)

the facts DO NOT speak for themselves, esp. true for fossils and geological strata. they MUST be interpreted. and that involves humans. unfortunately anything involving humans is biased.

when one digs up an ape tooth, it does not say "i am 6 million years old" and that should be enough to make any geologist/archaeologist a skeptic.
 
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Biliskner

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Evolution is NOT science. It is dogma. Why? Because it is NOT Falsifiable. It is also circular reasoning.

"The fossil is dated by the rock layer it is in. The rock layer is dated by the fossil that is in it. Evolution was assumed when the column was built. Now the column supports evolution!"

Yes...
 
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rmwilliamsll

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here is another interesting essay that points to a particular hermeneutic as being the key point in the defense of Southern slavery

from: http://www.christianethicstoday.com...ons of Slavery By William E. Hull_043_05_.htm


and it has everything to do with the current discussion, for it is the same hermeneutic that is leading believers astray on the creation-evolution-design issues.
 
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Calminian

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I didn't ask what noll thought I asked what you thought. Noll doesn't seem to think it's important to go to scripture to learn the meaning of words. The abolitionists were correct. Adapting modern meanings to old words will do nothing but cause confusion and even harm. This is a bad hermeneutical approach. A good hermeneutic would be to find out what the author actually meant by that word. This still a literal approach. Had early american christians done this perhaps slavery wouldn't have become so widespread.

So rmwII, do you personally believe there was a difference between biblical and early american slavery? Do you personally believe it was right for early american christians to adapt a modern meaning to it?
 
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Calminian

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mhess13 said:
I still don't see what slavery has to do with the price of rice in China

rmwII has mad the point that a literal approach to scripture is the cause of many evils like slavery. Thus a literal approach should be abandoned, i.e. a literal approach to Genesis should be abandoned. I'm trying to show the fallaciousness of the slavery argument. But it's your call. If you want this topic moved elsewhere, say the word.
 
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Calminian

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faith guardian said:
mhess. Why on earth do you want the US out of the UN?

Do you want less criticism on your president's warmongery?

Absolutely! Once you guys got rid of the Vikings it's been downhill every since.

Typical european leftist response. Imagine what the world would be like if they had their way.
 
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TheReasoner

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Calminian said:
Absolutely! Once you guys got rid of the Vikings it's been downhill every since.

Typical european leftist response. Imagine what the world would be like if they had their way.


Hmmm... Peaceful with equal rights and no excessively poweful concerns?
 
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