Theistic Evolution - A position

[SavedByGrace3]

This is not finalized. These are the current principles I am working with from scripture and nature.


A: The Original Creation Genesis 1:1
1. At some point, very likely 14.4 billion years ago, God spoke the "stuff" of creation into existence. This was nothing more than space and primitive matter. I interpret "heavens and the earth" as space and matter.
2. Over a period of billions of years, God molded the universe into the galaxies, black holes, nebula, and planets. All this occurred prior to Geneses 1:3.
3. God, in the formation of the planets, infuses the ground and sea with the functionality to generate life. God guides the process though development stages.
4. God presides over a period of ages we refer to as prehistoric. These ages are not detailed in the scripture. These include all the geologic periods referred to by paleontologists and archeologists.
5. Animals and other creatures develop from the Word-infused earth and sea. Starting with microscopic organisms emerging from the land and water, God allows the kinds to develop on their own, only intervening when He desires changes in individual species. Ultimately, a form of man comes into being.
6. At some point, we surmise this to be 65 million years ago. Satan, as the ruler of the earth, rebels along with 1/3 of the angels. The earth is destroyed to the point where its ability to generate life is extinguished.

B: The Gap period between the fall of Satan and the restructuring of the earth.
7. The Spirit broods over the earth. Gen 1:2

C: The Reformation of the earth and recreation of life.
8. We are now at Genesis 1:2 in the Genesis process. The earth is in a state of absolute chaos because of the rebellion of Satan and the resultant destruction of the earth. It is said to be without form and void. It is from here that the earth reformed which is detailed from Gen 1:3 to Gen 2:6
9. The reformation process begins with the restoration of light and the firmament, the clearing of the chaos, and the establishment of seas and land.
10. God re-invigorated the land and the sea to once again bring forth life. As nature shows us, the first elements of life issued from the primordial land and sea, and began to ascend to higher forms all according to the plans and purposes of God. God intervened where it was needed to guide life into acceptable forms of life.
11. Eventually one of these higher forms of life was the animal man described in the closing verses of Gen 1. This is NOT Adam and Eve.
12. God created Adam and Even from the dust of the earth and set them in the garden Unlike the animal man created in the closing verses of Gen 1, Adam and Eve were created by the direct hand and breath of God.
13. Eventually the "animal man" cross bred with the "God breathed man." This is where the sons of Adam got their wives.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Sorry Dids but there is no "middle ground". The Garden of Eden was not built on a pile of dead bones

 

[AV1611VET]

A: The Original Creation Genesis 1:1
1. ... I interpret "heavens and the earth" as space and matter.

Genesis 1:1 doesn't use the term: THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.

 

[High Fidelity]

Genesis 1:1 doesn't use the term: THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.

Aside from the poster making heaven plural, right?

 

[AV1611VET]

Aside from the poster making heaven plural, right?

That is correct.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

 

[Lost Angel]

Genesis 1:1 doesn't use the term: THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.

Actually, it was first written in some other primitive language, likely that of Hebrew roots.

 

[AV1611VET]

Actually, it was first written in some other primitive language, likely that of Hebrew roots.

You were there?

 

[High Fidelity]

Actually, it was first written in some other primitive language, likely that of Hebrew roots.

Do you not imagine that with the countless translations and revisions we have now, we'd know whether heaven was written about as singular or plural?

I mean, it would be pretty important to translate the first line correctly, don't you think? It would be a pretty shocking challenge in credibility if the very first line was wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you not imagine that with the countless translations and revisions we have now, we'd know whether heaven was written about as singular or plural?

I mean, it would be pretty important to translate the first line correctly, don't you think? It would be a pretty shocking challenge in credibility if the very first line was wrong.

That's right ... and we certainly don't want to pluralize something that should be singular, do we?

As Paul stated it:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Adding an ess to the wrong word can lead to all sorts of errors.

Adam put the ess on it after the creation week was over.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

 

[Ophiolite]

That's right ... and we certainly don't want to pluralize something that should be singular, do we?

As Paul stated it:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Adding an ess to the wrong word can lead to all sorts of errors.

Adam put the ess on it after the creation week was over.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

It turns out that you are incorrect. The original text is, as you know, in Hebrew.

Genesis 2:1 reads וַיְכֻלּוּ הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ וְכָל־צְבָאָֽם׃

Compare this with Genesis 1:1 - בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

You will note that in both cases the singular of heaven is used: shamayim - שָׁמַיִם

The King James version and other English translations do use the plural in Genesis 2:1, but that does not reflect the Hebrew original.

It would be nice if you would now acknowledge your error without equivocation.

 

[AV1611VET]

It would be nice if you would now acknowledge your error without equivocation.

Now you know why I'm a KJVO.

 

[Ophiolite]

That is unacceptable. Will you now acknowledge your error? You claim to be a Christian. Will you please conduct yourself with the dignity and integrity that a Christian should strive for.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Gee... I wonder where the other heavens came from if God did not create them?



Gen_2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Gen_2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Deu_10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

Deu_32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Deu_33:28 Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob shall be upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew.

Jdg_5:4 LORD, when thou wentest out of Seir, when thou marchedst out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped, the clouds also dropped water.

2Sa_22:10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.

1Ki_8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

1Ch_16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

1Ch_16:31 Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.

1Ch_27:23 But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the LORD had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens.

2Ch_2:6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

2Ch_6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

2Ch_6:25 Then hear thou from the heavens, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest to them and to their fathers.

2Ch_6:33 Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as doth thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.

2Ch_6:35 Then hear thou from the heavens their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.

2Ch_6:39 Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee.

Ezr_9:6 And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over our head, and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens.

Neh_9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Job_9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Job_14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job_15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Job_20:6 Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds;

Job_26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job_35:5 Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.

Psa_2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Psa_8:1 To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David. O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Psa_8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Psa_18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

Psa_18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

Psa_19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Psa_33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Psa_36:5 Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.

Psa_50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

Psa_50:6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

Psa_57:5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens; let thy glory be above all the earth.

Psa_57:10 For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds.

Psa_57:11 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens: let thy glory be above all the earth.

Psa_68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.

Psa_68:8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

Psa_68:33 To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which were of old; lo, he doth send out his voice, and that a mighty voice.

Psa_73:9 They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.

Psa_89:2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

Psa_89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psa_89:11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

Psa_96:5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Psa_96:11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.

Psa_97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.

Psa_102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Psa_103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

Psa_104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

 

[SavedByGrace3]

These ones too!



Psa_108:4 For thy mercy is great above the heavens: and thy truth reacheth unto the clouds.

Psa_108:5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens: and thy glory above all the earth;

Psa_113:4 The LORD is high above all nations, and his glory above the heavens.

Psa_115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Psa_115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Psa_123:1 A Song of degrees. Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.

Psa_136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psa_144:5 Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.

Psa_148:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.

Psa_148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

Pro_3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

Pro_8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Isa_1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Isa_5:30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

Isa_13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa_34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Isa_40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Isa_42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isa_44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Isa_44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isa_45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

Isa_45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Isa_45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isa_48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Isa_49:13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

Isa_50:3 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and I make sackcloth their covering.

Isa_51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Isa_51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?

Isa_51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Isa_55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isa_64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

Isa_65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa_66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Jer_2:12 Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD.

Jer_4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jer_4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jer_4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Jer_9:10 For the mountains will I take up a weeping and wailing, and for the habitations of the wilderness a lamentation, because they are burned up, so that none can pass through them; neither can men hear the voice of the cattle; both the fowl of the heavens and the beast are fled; they are gone.

Jer_10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

Jer_10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Jer_10:13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Jer_14:22 Are there any among the vanities of the Gentiles that can cause rain? or can the heavens give showers? art not thou he, O LORD our God? therefore we will wait upon thee: for thou hast made all these things.

Jer_51:16 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens; and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Lam_3:41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.

Lam_3:66 Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the LORD.

Eze_1:1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Dan_4:26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

Hos_2:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;

Joe_2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Joe_2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

Joe_3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Hab_3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

Hag_2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

Hag_2:21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;

Zec_6:5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

Zec_8:12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

Zec_12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Mat_3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mat_24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mar_1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Luk_12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act_7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

2Co_5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Eph_4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Heb_1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Heb_4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Heb_7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Heb_8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Heb_9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

2Pe_3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe_3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe_3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[RickG]

You were there?

Exactly! Prove the accuracy of the bible. Sorry, the bible saying it is isn't proof.

 

[RickG]

Well Av, if not heavens, where did all those scriptures describing "heavens" come from?

 

[AV1611VET]

Gee... I wonder where the other heavens came from if God did not create them?

Are you talking to me?

First Heaven, the atmosphere, was created in Genesis 1:6.

Second Heaven, outer space, was created in Genesis 1:1.

Third Heaven, Heaven proper, was created ???

A "firmament" is a containment area, populated by its own objet d'art.

 

[Split Rock]

Now you know why I'm a KJVO.

Because its convenient??

 

[AV1611VET]

Because its convenient??

QV the conversation in progress.

If you think that's "convenient," you explain it.

 

[Ophiolite]

Excuse me AV, do you intend to acknowledge your error? It is clear cut. You made a claim that has been absolutely refuted, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. There are several adjectives that could be used to describe such behaviour, but I shall restrain myself, hopeful that you will do the right thing. I am waiting.