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[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Adverb [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Thanks for the comments. Most people read the words "then" in place of 'so'.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 3779[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]ou&tw[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (3778)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Houto[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]None[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]hoo'-to[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]King James Word Usage - Total: 213[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]so 164, thus 17, even so 9, on this wise 6, likewise 4, after this manner 3, miscellaneous 10[/FONT]
- in this manner, thus, so
The word "so" is presenting the manner in which "all Israel" will be saved, "The Deliverer will come." What is predicted is that subsequent to God's purpose in the Church being fulfilled, He will deliever Israel. This is in reference to Israel's national deliverance from persecution, not with respect to freedom from guilt or redemptive truth.
In Christ,
Tracey
At the end of Chapter 9 and 10, Part of Israel is described as those who stumbled by seeking the promise by the law or by works or by knowledge. This is the spirit of stupor as expressed in chapter 11.
Your position is the doctrination commonly taught in dispensationalism and I disagree with either paragraph you wrote and I think it by far the most important topic within Christianity.
We disagree.
In all these things, you make statements and then back them up with verses and partial verses while not including the whole council of scripture. This is not inductive study or letting the text speak for itself within it's context. For example 11:27a is agreed by you to be the new covenant, but it is referrring to the Isaiah 59 passage which also refers to the same time period of how God delivered 'the Israel of God" from the oppression of the beast of the Roman/Talmudism alliance at the same time period as sins were removed at the cross. (Dan 9:24, Jer 31;33) Yet you insert a gap of thousands of years to include your perspective.
Nope, "in this manner" does not mean 'then'. If it would mean 'after this manner' it would be referring to the jealousy factor of vs 25.
In the covenant it states "I will write my law (of forgiveness and love) in their hearts. The old covenant was corporal conditional on the israelites doing certain things to keep the land. The new covenant is the individual covenant of salvation. Yes, Repentance is involved, but it is God who grants both the repentance (of "sinful" actions and BEhavior due to total depravity, and repentance from any hope apart from Christ) and the faith to believe on Him and HIM alone. God works in the mind of the person within that persons free will, life and thinking to draw them to himself. Sometimes that working is very dramatic and abrupt as it was for Saul on the road to Damascus and sometimes it is through experiencing the futility and lack of Peace of trying to do good works or keep laws or codes to earn or keep salvation. Works of the spirit follow salvation. You've posted your dogma before, and this is the last I'll respond to a self justifying works salvation commentary. Yes, works of obedience to his will must follow and they do follow to those who continue to seek to do and be in 'his will'. There is General will of God and specific will or guidance of God as we take our individual life situations to him.
The past tense 'has happened' was written before the dispersion/ending of the house of Israel in 70 AD. Thus the blindness had already happened to part of Israel when Paul wrote the letter. This blindness would have happened individually speaking to those in the nation of Israel who had rejected the gospel message through the testimony of the disciples or their countrymen but who were reserved to believe upon it as they saw and learned of the fullness of God being poured out upon individuals in all flesh. Then some of them Israelites/Talmudists who had once been enemies of the gospel and even persecuted those who left their church (JUST AS PAUL had once been an enemy of the Gospel) would understand that salvation is intended for individuals from all mankind Just as Rom 11:32 and Gal 3:22 state.
This perspective is not the association with the jealousy towards the fullness of the individuals in the"foolish nation" that is described in Romans 10:19 which was for the time period of the passing of the old covenant and which Paul was referring to as he quoted Deut 32. Present tense "Israel" is a completely different religion than what was practiced before the Babylonian captivity or even through 70 Ad. Even their calendar does not follow the commands of moses. The old calender began at Passover. Even the ultra orthodox jews who may still follow the right calender ? cannot wait in their religion until the supposed end of the fullness of the gentiles and expect to be changed. That is not what this is referring to and I believe it to be a harmful teaching.
We disagree. I dont' believe there is or will be any merit of being a "ultra orthodox" jew in some interpretation of "end of earth" times. There may be some merit in that those who seriously seek God in the Old testament will be pointed towards Christ.
Those 'elect' who originally did not believe but who were destined by election to believe on Christ before their deaths DID believe. That is the whole context of this section from Romans 9-11 and especially beginning with Romans 10:19 where the jealousy of the filling of the individuals in the Nations (with the Spirit) would now cause those who had been blinded but reserved to become jealous unto believing on Jesus before the wrath was poured out. This idea of jealousy is repeated twice in romans 11 and relates back to 10:19.
(so says you: I disagree)
Paul in 55 AD uses himself as an example of one of the elect of Israel who had been a enemy of the gospel, but who had recieved Christ. In verse 5, Paul sets the tone as "in this present time" there was a remnant of Israel who would be saved.
Pleroma is in the tense that it has already been being filled.
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Didn't the believing church escape from the oppression of the Judaizers? Weren't they being persecuted and destroyed by Nero? Didnt' 11 of the 12 (or 13) of the disciples lose their lives under Nero and the judaizers? Didn't the church escape total destruction, just as Jesus said; if the days had not been cut short, no flesh would be saved, but for the sake of the elect, those days were cut short. Nero was ousted.
I thought you agreed that Israel is the church. If he didnt' forgive "Israels's sins" the cross is meaningless. Didnt' salvation come to the Jew first? Were'n't all the disciples Jews? What do you mean that he didnt' forgive Israels sins?
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And since as you say the old covenant has been completely abolished forever and "Israel" as a nation is an entity that only had a standing with God due to the Old covenant, then Israel as a conditional corporate land/nation entity that was offered in Deut 11-32 had also been abolished forever. Israel as a nation and/or a people have no entity nor covenant with God since the old covenant has been abolished. At least we are agreed with such.
Research when "Israel" was first called a 'people or nation of God". Was it when Israels son's were re-united in Egypt? Was it when they were removed from Egypt by moses? Was it when they recieved the law on Sinaia? No, it was after they were given the conditional covenant to keep all the laws and commands that Moses had given them and the levites and just before crossing the Jordan. Moses told them "this day thou are become a people (of God). Symbolically, the Old covenant began when he brought them by the hand out of Egypt, but the people were not called the people of God until after they had wandered in the wilderness for 40 yrs. (Deut 27:9) "Israel" as a nation of the old covenant land and nation offereing is extinct. The purposes of the geneologies were also over with the fulfillment of the confirmations of the geneologies through the patriarchs.
Yes, today, just as in Pauls day; people of any ethnic group or false religion can come to the full knowledge of the saving Grace of the promised messiah/Creator on an individual level, but there is no more national "Israel" from God's perspective.
However, I disagree with your statement that the New Covenant was fully established at the cross. The "new covenant" included the blessings of Abraham that through Him all nations of the earth would be blessed. Although the new covnent has its foundation and enforcement from the cross, just as the old covenant was established through a 40 yr process from the leading of the Israelites out of Egypt at passover till the crossing of the Jordan, so also the New covenant of blessings to all nations of the earth was established and confirmed through a 40 yr process from the cross through the escape of the Israelitish Christians from Judea back across the Jordan to the region of the decapolis while the oppressors of the old covenant (Judaism) were destroyed. Just as Isaiah 59 foretold.
The old covenant ways and hope continued up until the desolation of Jeruslaem and the temple. Just as Jesus said that they should continue in the law until all be fulfilled.
?????????????? This GAP is what you must believe to support your eschatology and your interpretation of Rom 11. But I do not believe this is what Rom 11 is referring to regardless of how many times you postulate it and offer your opinion. I think as you read your own views about the true church of Christ the Creator being Israel and about the old covenant being fully abolished; AND as you understand that "Israel" that Paul refers to in Rom 11 is sometimes the old covenant 'house' of Israel of the conditional land/nation opportunity and sometimes the spiritual believing "all Israel". you will find some confusing and conflicting ideas that do not support your futurist interpretation of Rom 11.
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And I would say that there is no gap and they were fulfilled. Weather these were fulfilled at the same time or not, I wouldn't' say.
"IN this manner" I believe refers to the commentary of Isaiah 59 which I believe had been fulfilled in the first century. We are 'grafted in' to the spiritual laws that were fully enacted and established from the cross through the desolation of the oppressors and the New Covenant of Gods law to Love Him written individually in the Heart.
Acts 7:23 has the words 40 yrs tesserakontaetēs to tell us that Pleroo is referring to the completing or filling of the 40 yrs age of moses. In Roman 11 we are not given the word "number" to associate with the filling of "nations". Thus your example of Acts 7 works against you and in favor of the contextual understanding as a spiritual filling and completeness of those individuals in the nations who were recieving Christ. In Romans 9:27 Paul uses the word "number" arithmos showing that it can be used to indicate a 'number' of people. If Paul would have wanted to say "filled or filling number" he would have written Pleroma arithmos and would have probably written in the future tense in the words signifying a coming in.
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This is stretching that word too far for even commentary. Read vs 15 where Paul restates and defines through parallelisms what he is referring to in the prior verse. How much more their fullness is being portrayed and defined as being "life from the dead" which I think we would both agree is their individual Spiritual life. Again, the corporate land/nation entity of national "israel" is at this time being abolished along with the old covenant; thus this is not referring to a resurrection of a national entity but of individual Israelites in 55 AD yet recieving Christ after they had initially rejected the Gospel message.
Again, what is "Israel" if the old covenant has been abolished if we agree that the church is "Israel". Are those people who practice a pagan, Babylonian religion "Israel"?? Isn't all religion that do not believe that Christ has already come in the flesh the religion of the antichrist? (Johns epistles) Isn't Judaism a religion of the "anti-christ" since it rejects Christ as having come in the flesh? Again, your invited to research just who "Israel" was and it's relation to the "old land-nation covenant".
And yet this is what your saying will happen to the "unsaved jews" who are reserved to be elected for belief in christ at his 'second coming'.
It's not vs 32 that is in question. Its the second phrase of vs 31 as underlined below.
vs 30; For as ye (gentiles of the Roman nations) in times past have not believed God, yet (YE) have now (40-55 AD) obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these (55 AD Israelite) also now (55 AD) not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all (both Jew and gentile) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (all nations, tribes and tongues)
The "they" in vs 31 is referring to the same individuals ("These") who had in 55 AD (NOW) not believed. "Now" doesn't have to be included at the second phrase of vs 31 to understand that the intended individuals were those jews who had initially rejected Christs message but who were elect to recieve mercy through understanding the goodness and fullness of the Gospel of the Creator that was being received by individuals among the Roman nations.
Neither is "might have mercy" in the future tense, but is in the aorist tense.
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Pleroma is "that which has completely come in; filled up; or is completely coming in" or 'filling up'. It's not in the future tense. It does not read; "until the full number of the Gentiles will come in". Again, Pleroma has nothing to do with a number, or else those we think of as "jews" would not be able to recieve christ during this supposed thousands of years Gap. I believe fullness is referring to the fullness of the Spirit of God being recieved by the nations who would then cause some of the elect unbelieving but yet elect of still intact house of Israel of the old covenant.
The context of Pauls message through all of chapter 11 supports this.
