The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism

[gracewriterrandy]

I believe when it says he is willing that none should perish, it means it.

Additionally, you need to realize the difference between God's declared will and God's decreed will. God has declared that murder is wrong, but he decreed that Judas hand Jesus over to be murdered.

The text does not say God has decreed that no one perish. He is saying that God is exercising his patience toward sinners and giving all an opportunity to repent. As I wrote earlier, since God is holy, he cannot but desire that all his creatures be holy as well. That is the real issue in salvation. There is a difference between saying that and saying God has decreed the salvation of all with out exception. In the context of 2 Pet 3, Peter is clearly talking to believers. When he says "God is longsuffering toward us" he is not talking about longsuffering toward the entire race.

 

[gracewriterrandy]

Romans 9 is NOT about salvation

If Romans 9 is not about salvation, what does Paul mean then he refers to the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction and the vessels of mercy which he prepared beforehand for glory? That sounds a great deal like destruction and salvation to me.

 

[gracewriterrandy]

Romans 9 is NOT about salvation

If you don't think this is about salvation, what do you think it is about. It is bracked by Paul's expressed desire for the salvation of his Jewish brethren. The whole of Romans 9-11 concerns the salvation of the true Israel within Israel.

 

[sculleywr]

Additionally, you need to realize the difference between God's declared will and God's decreed will. God has declared that murder is wrong, but he decreed that Judas hand Jesus over to be murdered.

The text does not say God has decreed that no one perish. He is saying that God is exercising his patience toward sinners and giving all an opportunity to repent. As I wrote earlier, since God is holy, he cannot but desire that all his creatures be holy as well. That is the real issue in salvation. There is a difference between saying that and saying God has decreed the salvation of all with out exception. In the context of 2 Pet 3, Peter is clearly talking to believers. When he says "God is longsuffering toward us" he is not talking about longsuffering toward the entire race.

Here's a note, when selling that God is lacking in love toward all, don't cover it up with fancy words. God never forces damnation or salvation on any. We want what we get. God only gives what we desire. He does not "decree" that we are damned, and if He does, then He lies. God loved the world. Not the elect.

 

[janxharris]

Me too.

But none of a certain group that Peter is talking about. Not out of context stretches to every single person in the human race.

That's called misusing God's word.

Satan does it.

You think Peter's letters are only to those unconditionally elected (as defined by Reformed Theology)?

 

[janxharris]

Even though words like mercy, wrath, etc are mentioned? That's a stretch.

The chapter is about God's election unto blessings. It seems that we are made a certain way, but that does not mean that salvation is precluded from anyone.

 

[janxharris]

Let's assume for a minute that you're right. That doesn't change a thing about the principles set forth in the passage. No matter what the context of Romans 9 (and you and I could disagree on what that is), it is firmly established that man has no right demand anything from the Creator. The questions Paul answers addresses your concerns exactly.

If it were the case that just one person never had any possibility of avoiding eternal damnation then I think that would prove scripture as false.

That God would send his son sacrificially demonstrates a love of his creation that is supreme. It is incongruous to suggest 'unconditional election'; it just does not fit and paints a schizophrenic picture of God.

 

[janxharris]

According to your standard, how is that fair?

He was punished.

The Bible, though, does not convey a message of human achievement. Its message is the opposite of Star Trek, and this message is an offence to every one of us, since we tend to think that our whole existence is summed up by how well we've demonstrated our own worthiness.

Faith in God is not a work.

What does that have to do with my post?

Perhaps I misunderstood you.

 

[janxharris]

By your own standard of fairness, God was unfair in choosing Israel, and Israel alone, to be His People for His own possession. Please, at least try to be consistent!

I have not suggest God was unfair when he chose Israel. Being chosen in this way did not guarantee salvation. It was a blessing but came with responsibility.

So? People die every day, even Believers. Do you think that's unfair, too?

I think you have misunderstood me.

The ever-present non-sequitor. It is the work that God does in the heart of those He saves. Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him who He has sent." Meaning, not that it is the work of God that you do, but it is the work of God, that HE does. You believe because He has granted faith to believe to you, which is a work of God in your heart. Quit trying to take credit for His work.

The plain meaning of John 6 is clear. Jesus hold us personally responsible.

 

[Eddie L]

If it were the case that just one person never had any possibility of avoiding eternal damnation then I think that would prove scripture as false.

That God would send his son sacrificially demonstrates a love of his creation that is supreme. It is incongruous to suggest 'unconditional election'; it just does not fit and paints a schizophrenic picture of God.

If Scripture can be trumped by your idea of Who God must be (in your eyes), then you might want to do some soul searching. You are not an authority. The Bible is.

 

[Eddie L]

He was punished.

Yes, and so was his son. How is it fair to the son?

Perhaps I misunderstood you.

Yeppers.

 

[janxharris]

Psalm 33:5
“The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.” (NIV)

 

[janxharris]

If Scripture can be trumped by your idea of Who God must be (in your eyes), then you might want to do some soul searching. You are not an authority. The Bible is.

This applies to us both.

 

[janxharris]

Yes, and so was his son. How is it fair to the son?

Do you say God is fair or not?


Psalm 33:5
“The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.”

 

[janxharris]

Additionally, you need to realize the difference between God's declared will and God's decreed will. God has declared that murder is wrong, but he decreed that Judas hand Jesus over to be murdered.

Judas acted through his own selfish free will. God did not make him do it (though He knew he would).

The text does not say God has decreed that no one perish. He is saying that God is exercising his patience toward sinners and giving all an opportunity to repent. As I wrote earlier, since God is holy, he cannot but desire that all his creatures be holy as well. That is the real issue in salvation. There is a difference between saying that and saying God has decreed the salvation of all with out exception. In the context of 2 Pet 3, Peter is clearly talking to believers. When he says "God is longsuffering toward us" he is not talking about longsuffering toward the entire race.

Would you clarify whether Peter was talking about sinners or just the elect in 2 Peter 3:9?

 

[crimsonleaf]

I dont deny that He knows some will reject Him, but this is not speaking towards the actions of who He saves, but toward the intentions of God as to WHO HE INTENDS TO SAVE. Nobodysfool put forth that election was only an intent to save. But this results in the false doctrine that God is not only the Judge of man, but the willing aid and abetter to their damnation. In other words, He condoned and designed their lives such that they would have no choice, because the choice was never offered. If you are not offered the choice, of course you will never be saved, because you didn't know there was another option. That places the responsibility for damnation squarely in God's hands.

Almost every day you and I argue or debate with atheists. Do you believe that they have no choice or don't know there is another option?

 

[Eddie L]

Do you say God is fair or not?


Psalm 33:5
“The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.”

I don't think God's sense of fairness requires equal opportunity, because everyone is guilty. God would be completely just if there had been no cross. He could've left the world to be condemned and not done a thing to save us, and by doing so He would not have been doing anything wrong. When God decides to show mercy on anyone, there is nothing unfair about Him leaving others to the consequences of their own rebellion.

I am firmly convinced that if any of us think that God owes the cross to creation we grossly misunderstand the seriousness of our own sin. I'm also convinced that if we believe that God was not obligated to send Jesus at all, it is very inconsistent for us to believe that He is obligated to send Jesus for everyone.

 

[janxharris]

When God decides to show mercy on anyone, there is nothing unfair about Him leaving others to the consequences of their own rebellion.

Are you comfortable with saying this?

I am firmly convinced that if any of us think that God owes the cross to creation we grossly misunderstand the seriousness of our own sin. I'm also convinced that if we believe that God was not obligated to send Jesus at all, it is very inconsistent for us to believe that He is obligated to send Jesus for everyone.

God did send Jesus for everyone. It says so in scripture.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Could you explain?

Certainly. The previous poster (Epoisses) says that a partial atonement (an atonement for believers only, or limited atonement) shows no love. I was merely pointing out that if God showed no love there would be no atonement at all.

 

[janxharris]

Certainly. The previous poster (Epoisses) says that a partial atonement (an atonement for believers only, or limited atonement) shows no love. I was merely pointing out that if God showed no love there would be no atonement at all.

Ok. Thanks.