The 'Wise' Professor

[The Simple Plan]

Professing to be wise, they became fools...
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't."
[No answer.]
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
[No answer]
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?"
[No answer]
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them?"
[No answer]
The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
[No answer]
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"
[No answer]
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?"
[Pause]
"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"
[No answer]
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks.
"Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Jesus?"
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
[No answer]
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
[The student doesn't answer]
"Sit down, please."
The Christian sits... Defeated.

 

[The Simple Plan]

 Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence. A pin dropped somewhere in the classroom could be heard.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. "This will indeed be a good semester. Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..."
The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue. "You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbour who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?"
The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless. The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"
The professor wisely keeps silent. The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?"
The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?"
No one appears to have done so. The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain."

The class is in chaos. The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for.

 

[Hopeful]

 

[Damian]

that is awesome...i love it... i have to share that with my FCA group

 

[seebs]

I have to say, I personally utterly loathe these stories; they combine the worst stereotypes about both Christians and atheists, and generally seem to exist only to attack straw men. The attacks on "what we can see" are always based on horrible misunderstandings of basic scientific principles.

Or, to quote one of the very first Father Brown stories, attacking reason is bad theology.

 

[seebs]

Truth doesn't rest on falsehoods. A "defense" of Christianity rooted in false accusations and straw men is no defense at all.

 

[JesusServant]

I liked all but the part about his brain. The argument of darkness is one I've used and I got it from the Bible itself. "No matter how dark it is, it cannot overcome the light." - Kind of a parable of mine, but I'm sure someone somewhere already said it

 

[PastorFreud]

Yech!!

This kind of story is wretched!! Seebs has spoken well. I do not see what there is to gain by creating and propogating stories like this. Besides misrepresenting people's valid concerns over evil, they misrepresent God as well.

I do agree that the problem is dualism. And the church is a stronghold for dualism.

 

[seebs]

Today at 10:15 PM JesusServant said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650045#post650045)

I liked all but the part about his brain. The argument of darkness is one I've used and I got it from the Bible itself. "No matter how dark it is, it cannot overcome the light." - Kind of a parable of mine, but I'm sure someone somewhere already said it

I dislike the attack on duality, although I think duality models are often insufficient.

I liked the second part a bit better than the first. Part of that is because it's rooted in an urban legend:

http://www.snopes.com/religion/chalk.htm

This one is widely distributed and claimed to be "true", and that claim harms Christianity sorely, by making it look like our beliefs rest on provably false fairy-tales made up to make us feel all superior and stuff.

Furthermore, I don't like the first part because the "atheism" presented is a straw man. Almost no atheists actually feel that way or think that way; some elements may be there, but much of it is just propaganda aimed at making us feel like we're in a position to look down on people. A more anti-Christian sentiment is hard for me to imagine!

Meanwhile, the attack on science still rankles; it's based on huge misunderstandings of how science works, and what it's good for. There may be scientists out there who think that science somehow "disproves" God - but if so, they're pretty bad scientists, and we *DO* have an objective measure available for that. The majority of scientists merely think that the God thing is outside the scope of science. Many believe; a fair number don't. Those who believe don't think that somehow science is "flawed" - only that it's not the only tool in the world.

The end result of this little story is to place science in opposition to God; this is a grave disservice to both science and God, and cannot help us. Atheism, at least, is actually in opposition to some points of Christian theology - but then, much Protestant theology is in opposition to much Catholic theology. Instead of making atheists out to be bitter, evil, hopeless people, perhaps we should try to see them as God surely does, as *people* first and foremost, and instead of trying to find ways we can feel ourselves superior, perhaps we should find ways we can feel ourselves kin to them, and welcome them into our lives - and eventually, God willing, into our faith.

 

[The Simple Plan]

Each to their own. Some are quite strengthened by the fact that one person was confident to defend an empty theory than see an attack on science, but hey each to their own.

It wasn't an arguement to say I am better but if your going to use a straw man (which many people do to condemn chrsitianity) ensure that straw man does not come fall down on you. Rather than see it is a message of posing a Christian superiority complex, it showed me that reason is not always the best way to explain and argument, but if called upon....

Oh well, same world different glasses....

Blessings
Dave

 

[seebs]

Today at 02:07 AM The Simple Plan said this in Post #10 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650362#post650362)

Each to their own. Some are quite strengthened by the fact that one person was confident to defend an empty theory than see an attack on science, but hey each to their own.

It wasn't an arguement to say I am better but if your going to use a straw man (which many people do to condemn chrsitianity) ensure that straw man does not come fall down on you. Rather than see it is a message of posing a Christian superiority complex, it showed me that reason is not always the best way to explain and argument, but if called upon....

Oh well, same world different glasses....

Blessings
Dave

I like the idea of a person being confident enough to defend his position, but I don't like the way the attack he's defending it against is a straw man.

Reason is not always the best thing to rely upon to form opinions, but it's central to a debate. The thing attacked was not reason; it was *bad* reason. The story would have been more compelling had it shown the flaws in the reasoning, rather than attacking the idea of reason at all.

Anyway, I didn't mean to attack you personally; I appreciate the intention, I just get frustrated with the endless myths of "atheist professors" who have, through education, somehow become incapable of faith. There's a widespread fear of knowledge and learning in some parts of Christianity, and it hurts us badly.

 

[Evening Mist]

Call me naive, but I don't think any decent scientist actually considers the scientific method to be flawless. And I *really* don't think philosophy teaches that we are capable at seeing objectively. We always have our sets of basic assumptions.

Scientists I have known will admit that our efforts at science always happen through the lenses of our assumptions and worlview. The best that we can do is to acknowlege our preconceptions and make an honest effort to compensate.

Science is a tool, not a religion.

And this story strikes me as kind of mean spirited.
I don't like the competetiveness. The one who argues best is the winner and the one who is left humiliated is the looser. If we always used these methods to determine truth we'd be in sad shape. (Oh wait -- we are in sad shape!) Its a show of mental capacity -- and just like shows of physical capacity, "might does not always make right." There is always someone mightier.

There are better ways.

 

[The Simple Plan]

OK guys allow me to make an apology. I realise I have stirred up a hornets nest here --- I don't think I have ever had so many responses in this section --- well not unfavourable anway!!

 I read this item a couple years back and enjoyed the challenge it posed beyond the two characters, i.e. do you know what you really believe in if you were challenged? However as a student of philosophy and as a Christian counsellor I realise that sometimes what is perceived can come across so much more than what is intended. I realise that no matter what I post on this subject, because of this medium it can still be perceived as ill thought of.

I face a paradox in my own Christian walk where by my atheist and agnostic friends (who actually called me cheeky when they read this) consider me liberal and some of my Christian friends consider me conservative that you can't win them all.

In the presence of God and before you all I apologise if this came across as a shadowed or veiled attack on science or atheism, or even being mean spirited and an example of Christian bigotry. [I would advice if you ever have time to see my other posts to realise this is not so] This was not my intention. My intention was not to create or knock down straw men and maybe I will learn the lesson to continue only posting those devotionals and thoughts that the Holy Spirit has given me direct.

Your brother in Christ and humble servant of the King
Dave

 

[Evening Mist]

Oh Dave, you don't need to apologize about anything. I thought it was interesting, I just didn't really buy it. We don't have to agree in order to learn something from a disscussion. I'm sorry if I made you feel bad, and I'm glad you posted it, and I don't doubt your intentions in the least!

 

[OracleX]

I think that there is good and no so good in this story.  It is sad to see a Christian cut up like this and that they were not able to defend themselves against harsh questions.  It is also sad that a professor would actually center someone out like that and basically make them look like a fool.  The unfortunate thing is that it happens on both accounts.

The logic used by the professor was not soundly based and was very biasis - which sums up many Christians when they try to argue or defend Christianity.  I think that the 2nd student may have got his point across as good as the professor got his point across to the 1st student.  In both cases it was not done kindly and was spiteful.

I use try to read as much as possible on things like apologetics and philosophy but I find that there is a danger in doing so.  When one seeks knowledge without humility they can easily become arogent and just out to prove others wrong.  I think that there are a few things that we need to remember in defending the faith that we have.  First we are defending.  Maybe it is just me but I think I have enough daily battles to deal with without trying to find more.  When God does bring these battles into my day, I will face them.  I think that there are too many out there (I know I use to be bad for this) that are looking to go "Aa ha!" and prove others wrong rather than try and reach them.  This leads into the second issue.  There are some that we can not reason with.  There are some that no matter what you know or how you put it or how perfect your logic and arguement is, they will not list or change.  People too easily forget that it is God that saves people and He is the only one with the power to do that.  We are His instruments and we must make sure that what we do is of Him.  There are those that we can not reason with and it is up to God to change their hearts.

Seeking knowledge can be a dangerous thing.  The must humble and one of the kindest persons I know has two doctorites, three masters and a bunch of other degrees.  If you were to talk to him, you would know that he is well educated but nothing like he is.  There are many warnings in the Bible to those who seek knowledge and wisdom and Romans talks very specifically about it.  This is something that I have struggled with in the past and pray for in the present.  For the time I have almost stopped reading books on apologetics and philosophy and try and read the Bible as much as possible.  Maybe once I have finished reading the Bible from cover to cover will I pick up those books again.  In the mean time I will seek first Gods words then mans.

I hope that didn't sound like ramblings.

 

[OracleX]

Forgot something in my post ...

I don't think that you did wrong by posting. Your intentions were true and we all can take away something from that story. The story may not be the perfect example of someone defending Christianity but that doesn't mean that it has no purpose.

Although we may not like how the story went I think that we still must reply with gentleness and love.

 

[seebs]

Today at 04:38 PM The Simple Plan said this in Post #13 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=651558#post651558)

OK guys allow me to make an apology. I realise I have stirred up a hornets nest here --- I don't think I have ever had so many responses in this section --- well not unfavourable anway!!

Sorry! I didn't mean to rag on you or your story, and I'm glad you posted it.

In the presence of God and before you all I apologise if this came across as a shadowed or veiled attack on science or atheism, or even being mean spirited and an example of Christian bigotry. [I would advice if you ever have time to see my other posts to realise this is not so] This was not my intention. My intention was not to create or knock down straw men and maybe I will learn the lesson to continue only posting those devotionals and thoughts that the Holy Spirit has given me direct.

Oh, please don't stop. I think my understanding of faith and apologetics has been improved by this discussion, even though it may not have been the discussion you had in mind. So, I for one benefitted, and perhaps some of the lurkers did, too.

I think it's pretty clear that your posting was not mean-spirited; at worst, it reflects a few common misconceptions about atheists, and really, that's not the whole point of the story.

I should apologize again; I am an optimist by nature, and as such, I assume almost everything is good in some way; when I complain, the things I'm complaining about are generally the only things I saw as wrong.

 

[The Simple Plan]

Thank you all for your words of encouragement.

Dave.

 

[Snowy]

I loved that one too!!