The vow of Mary and the Fathers of the Church

[Philothei]

Again CJ do you think that if ONLY prophets wrote about themselves and Apsostles ...the scripture has validity? Also how sure are you that all. scripture was written by the authors that they say it was? Christ did not write anything...yet you believe the gospel...So if Mary did not 'write" it you still insist on her writing it...That is not consistand indeed.

 

[Philothei]

Origen


"The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity" (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

If anyone can come up with anything like a historical doc -other than scripture-that testifies to the Virgin Mary either having children OR having relations with Joseph is more than welcome to bring it forth...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

If anyone can come up with anything like a historical doc -other than scripture-that testifies to the Virgin Mary either having children OR having relations with Joseph is more than welcome to bring it forth...

1. Interesting you want to exclude Scripture...


2. There is no dogma of "Jesus Had Lotsa Sibs" or "Jesus Had No Sibs" Thus those dogmas don't need to be confirmed. By anyone.


3. I disagree with you that a position is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth if it cannot be shown false. Show me that there are NOT 6.321 billion furry brown critters living on the Moon of Endor. Can't? Ergo, is such a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth? Show me that Mary was NOT 8 feet tall and lived nearly entirely on fish tacos. Can't? Ergo, is such a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth? I think you need to reconsider your apologetic there. Just because someone can't prove (with something other than the Bible) that Mary DID have sex at least once doesn't mean that ERGO it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER.








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[Philothei]

1. Interesting you want to exclude Scripture...


2. There is no dogma of "Jesus Had Lotsa Sibs" or "Jesus Had No Sibs" Thus those dogmas don't need to be confirmed. By anyone.


3. I disagree with you that a position is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth if it cannot be shown false. Show me that there are NOT 6.321 billion furry brown critters living on the Moon of Endor. Can't? Ergo, is such a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth? Show me that Mary was NOT 8 feet tall and lived nearly entirely on fish tacos. Can't? Ergo, is such a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth? I think you need to reconsider your apologetic there. Just because someone can't prove (with something other than the Bible) that Mary DID have sex at least once doesn't mean that ERGO it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER.








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The title of this thread excludes scripture

And prove to me with historical facts that she had relations with Joseph. Find a single ECF or historian that agrees with the position that the EV was wrong.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Again CJ

... Yes, it seems to ME that one person seeming to share his/her opinion about an issue 300 years after the fact with NOTHING present to indicate such is true is NOT confirmation of such being a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth. IF I posted that it is my opinion that upon your death or undeath, you will have had sex 7621 times (offering NOTHING to suggest why I believe that or that it is true), would you suggest that such is confirmation of such as a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth and that we all can and must share this tidbit with all the world as a matter of greatest certainty? What if I said the same of someone who died (or didn't) 300 years ago? What do YOU think? IF I were to share such about your sex life (and because I respect you, I NEVER would), would it matter at all to you if it was true? Would my saying it indicate that it's good with you that all the world know that? Just curious what YOU'D desire if the topic was you rather than one we both agree is of infinite greater importance.





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[CaliforniaJosiah]

I disagree with you that a position is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth if it cannot be shown false. Show me that there are NOT 6.321 billion furry brown critters living on the Moon of Endor. Can't? Ergo, is such a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth? Show me that Mary was NOT 8 feet tall and lived nearly entirely on fish tacos. Can't? Ergo, is such a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth? I think you need to reconsider your apologetic there. Just because someone can't prove (with something other than the Bible) that Mary DID have sex at least once doesn't mean that ERGO it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER.


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prove to me with historical facts that she had relations with Joseph. Find a single ECF or historian that agrees with the position that the EV was wrong.

Read what you quoted from me.







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[Philothei]

I disagree with you per your premise is not what we are discussing here. it is not about the 'dogma" but the sources that formulate the dogma of EV. We have adressed that over and over.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

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So, your position is the most reliable sources for information about Mary's personal sex life are Jerome and St. Athanasius? Not Mary. Not Joseph or Jesus or any of the Apostles. Not Scripture. But Jerome and St. Athanasius? Why do you think these two men would KNOW this above all others, to the point of being confirmation of a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty of Truth? Does this apply to EVERYTHING these two men EVER penned or just when it comes to Mary or agrees with your denomination?




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[Philothei]

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So, your position is the most reliable sources for information about Mary's personal sex life are Jerome and St. Athanasius? Not Mary. Not Joseph or Jesus or any of the Apostles. Not Scripture. But Jerome and St. Athanasius? Why do you think these two men would KNOW this above all others, to the point of being confirmation of a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty of Truth? Does this apply to EVERYTHING these two men EVER penned or just when it comes to Mary or agrees with your denomination?

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It is the whole Church (that was one prior to schism) that agreed to the EV of Mary NOT ONLY the ones you mentioned. Also the Apostles are silent and that does not mean they disagree either. As far as MAry or Joseph they did not write about it just like Christ did not write about his own resurection but you still agree to it!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

So, your position is the most reliable sources for information about Mary's personal sex life are Jerome and St. Athanasius? Not Mary. Not Joseph or Jesus or any of the Apostles. Not Scripture. But Jerome and St. Athanasius? Why do you think these two men would KNOW this above all others, to the point of being confirmation of a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty of Truth? Does this apply to EVERYTHING these two men EVER penned or just when it comes to Mary or agrees with your denomination?

It is the whole Church (that was one prior to schism) that agreed to the EV of Mary NOT ONLY the ones you mentioned.

This thread is about TWO.


You replied to none of the points or questions I raised in what you quoted from me.


Where is your evidence that all Christians prior to 1054 agreed that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER? You posted two from very late, who had no way to know this tidbit of sex info, two is a pretty small percentage of Christians. Could you give a few quotes from others, say much closer to Mary, perhaps contemporaries of Mary? Not the whole church, just 4 or 5 other voices, contemporaries of Mary. Thanks.

Also the Apostles are silent

I know. Just as are all 49,998 other denominations besides the RC and EO. They are are just like Mary, Joseph, and Jesus - at least in the same sense as you insist that all the Apostles were. I'm not sure how that indicates that your denomination should shout about this tidbit of sexual info- and regard it as a matter of highest importance for all to know and greatest certainty to truth?






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[Philothei]

I have nothing to prove the fact the EO and RC and the rest of the Christians confessed one faith they automatically confessing the EV of Mary it is the decision of the 2nd Ecumenical council of Constantinople. Each following council radifies the canons of the previous one.

It would be ridiculous to say that they did not believe the same way it would be ridiculous to say that they did not believe in the resurrection of Christ or the Trnity. Once Dogma is accepted then if is radified. It woud not be dogma if the Church/ people did not believe in it...Or then we should doubt that there were any "christians' at all...Since confession to the faith does not jive with the opinions of the people

 

[Philothei]

I know. Just as are all 49,998 other denominations besides the RC and EO. They are are just like Mary, Joseph, Jesus and all the Apostles.

Denominations with 1 person is NOT lotsa people!!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

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Also the Apostles are silent

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I know. Just as are all 49,998 other denominations besides the RC and EO. Just like Mary, Joseph, and Jesus - at least in the same sense as you insist that all the Apostles were. I'm not sure how that indicates that your denomination should shout about this tidbit of sexual info- and regard it as a matter of highest importance for all to know and greatest certainty to truth?

Denominations with 1 person is NOT lotsa people

READ the exchange.

It is the whole Church (that was one prior to schism) that agreed to the EV of Mary

I have nothing to prove the fact the EO and RC and the rest of the Christians confessed one faith confessing the EV of Mary

???






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[Philothei]

Just quote the whole post it works better than way!

 

[bbbbbbb]

If anyone can come up with anything like a historical doc -other than scripture-that testifies to the Virgin Mary either having children OR having relations with Joseph is more than welcome to bring it forth...

Been there, done that too many times. If you want to have a serious, open discussion with me concerning the five passages in the three synoptic gospels which specifically denote the siblings of Jesus Christ, please feel free to PM me. Otherwise, I will just lurk here and not derail this thread for CaliforniaJosiah.

 

[Philothei]

Been there, done that too many times. If you want to have a serious, open discussion with me concerning the five passages in the three synoptic gospels which specifically denote the siblings of Jesus Christ, please feel free to PM me. Otherwise, I will just lurk here and not derail this thread for CaliforniaJosiah.

ah..I see I like Josiah too We have all these great discussions

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I will just lurk here and not derail this thread for CaliforniaJosiah.

I sense there's nothing to discuss....

The quote of an individual is the issue. It's entirely unclear what about it we are to discuss or what we are to make of it. He is the first (or one of them) that seems to indicate some opinion that Mary had no sex ever (he uses a title for Her that seems to suggest). NOTHING is given to reveal the opinion as true so it has nothing to do with whether she did or did not have sex, it is about his opinion. And NOTHING is given to remotely suggest he think it matters - much less is a matter of highest importance of all to all. And obviously, since he gives this opinion some 300 years after the death of only one who could know or confirm this, it seems pretty moot at best. But, can he have an opinion? Sure! I guess that's all that can be said.






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[Philothei]

300 years after is better of an opinion than 1700 years after the fact Unless there is data that proves against it his opinion- which is the opinion of the Church- still stands

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

300 years after is better of an opinion than 1700 years after the fact

I see.


So, if one person in 1817 seems to express his opinion that it was not Luther but Jesus that posted the 95 Thesis on the door - that makes it a dogmatic fact of highest importance of all to all and a matter of greatest certainty of fact - even is that person in no way says it's actually true or gives ANYTHING to reveal it true - okay. I have a LOT of things in the LDS I'd like to share with you in another thread, all things you will regard as dogma by the rubric you are here promoting and defending.


I don't have an opinion on how often Mary did or did not have sex after Jesus was born. There are only TWO denominations on the planet that do. It's dogma in both of them. You seem to be confused on what denominations do and do not have an opinion.

Unless there is data that proves against it his opinion still stands

Ah. There is no data that proves Joseph Smith didn't find those plates. Ergo, you must believe it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to and for all and a matter of greatest certainty of truth that he did.






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[Philothei]

I see.


So, if one person in 1817 seems to express his opinion that it was not Luther but Jesus that posted the 95 Thesis on the door - that makes it a dogmatic fact of highest importance of all to all and a matter of greatest certainty of fact - even is that person in no way says it's actually true or gives ANYTHING to reveal it true - okay. I have a LOT of things in the LDS I'd like to share with you in another thread, all things you will regard as dogma by the rubric you are here promoting and defending.


I don't have an opinion on how often Mary did or did not have sex after Jesus was born. There are only TWO denominations on the planet that do. It's dogma in both of them. You seem to be confused on what denominations do and do not have an opinion.





Ah. There is no data that proves Joseph Smith didn't find those plates. Ergo, you must believe it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to and for all and a matter of greatest certainty of truth that he did.






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Strawmen...
-how often : irrelevant
-Lds: irrelevant this can apply to ANYTHING No data that proves that Christ never existed?
-The rubric is what is said by the ECFs the councils and the church the same rubric they used to define which books will be included in the NT canon...