The violence in the OT

[Cis.jd]

I understand that topics like this have been done a million times. The occasional atrocities in the OT that Atheists normally use as a reference to the evils in religion.

"slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”

Is an example of one verse. I've read and heard arguments being that they where sinners and they were doing bad things to the Hebrews for 400 years.. but does this justify the killing of babies and animals?

I'm not going to debate because I and most of you certainly have encountered these arguments many times. I'm just interested to see how believers here can explain it intelligently and in ways that (if possible) is understandable for secular people.

For your reference:
Canaanites Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21
Amalekites 1 Samuel 15
The harsh death penalties in Leviticus.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The natural mind cannot grasp the truth.

Even calling that verse an example of an atrocity is carnal, not spiritual.

.... ... what does God call it, and did God give a reason for it ? (in Scripture)...

that's another possible key to understanding ....

yet in any case, God is always Perfect, in Wisdom, Judgment, Justice and Mercy, Perfect in Every Way. Even when not understood ........

 

[Cis.jd]

The natural mind cannot grasp the truth.

Even calling that verse an example of an atrocity is carnal, not spiritual.

ok. but lets also be aware that we have to help those with "natural minds" come into understanding with all of these. It's good to have a good rational answer in defending what we believe. but i do understand what you are saying.

 

[Basil the Great]

I understand that topics like this have been done a million times. The occasional atrocities in the OT that Atheists normally use as a reference to the evils in religion.

"slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”

Is an example of one verse. I've read and heard arguments being that they where sinners and they were doing bad things to the Hebrews for 400 years.. but does this justify the killing of babies and animals?

I'm not going to debate because I and most of you certainly have encountered these arguments many times. I'm just interested to see how believers here can explain it intelligently and in ways that (if possible) is understandable for secular people.

For your reference:
Canaanites Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21
Amalekites 1 Samuel 15
The harsh death penalties in Leviticus.

Yes, the excessive violence in the Old Testament has bothered many of us. This is why some of us do not believe that God actually issued all of the commands in the Old Testament. Need an example? How about Exodus 21:15, "Whoever strikes his father or mother must be put to death"?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

ok. but lets also be aware that we have to help those with "natural minds" come into understanding with all of these. It's good to have a good rational answer in defending what we believe. but i do understand what you are saying.

.... see edited post .....

We can give our testimony of what God says about what God does,

from God's Word. The truth is the only thing that can set anyone free...

It may or may not seem "rational" to even someone who is Christian but has not learned from Scripture what God means (like if they learned from carnal men, as in Corinthians 2 I think - carnal men in the assembly , being taught how to become spiritual ....)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, the excessive violence in the Old Testament has bothered many of us. This is why some of us do not believe that God actually issued all of the commands in the Old Testament. Need an example? How about Exodus 21:15, "Whoever strikes his father or mother must be put to death"?

That's a good example of what I just posted about.

When God is believed, when I knew God is perfect, and that He guards His Word, and that His Word is Right, and men are not,
I had no trouble accepting even difficult (for some) Scriptures like this.

The understanding is found a few places online, but not many. The explanations are sometimes found too, though not as often. Explanations in line with all of God's Word, Plan , Purpose and Salvation in Christ Jesus.

Best of all, for all, is when God grants understanding of Scripture, as He Says, His Own Meaning instead of the forbidden interpretations.

 

[Dkh587]

Usually, in the scriptures, when you see people being destroyed by God, it is because of their wickedness, or because judgement fell on them due to the consequences of another person’s actions.

If God is just (which he is), then wouldn’t it stand to reason that he is justified when he punishes people for their wickedness committed against him?

 

[Cis.jd]

Yes, the excessive violence in the Old Testament has bothered many of us. This is why some of us do not believe that God actually issued all of the commands in the Old Testament. Need an example? How about Exodus 21:15, "Whoever strikes his father or mother must be put to death"?

I love your answer, and this is also my view. However, just to play devils advocate.. doesn't this raise the question to secularists on the good commandments as well?

 

[Cis.jd]

Usually, in the scriptures, when you see people being destroyed by God, it is because of their wickedness.

If God is just (which he is), then wouldn’t it stand to reason that he is justified when he punishes people for their wickedness committed against him?

Yes.. but the problem is that infants and animals where brought in. That is where it gets hard to justify. One can say "well, that was war.. even during our modern wars innocent people get killed due to the cross fire or just being with in the vicinity of the bomb. However back then it was through the sword in where crossfiring was non-existent unless through archery or catapults but even then these infants and animals where ordered to be killed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I love your answer, and this is also my view. However, just to play devils advocate.. doesn't this raise the question to secularists on the good commandments as well?

As if any Word of God is not Perfect !?
Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those ...

https://biblehub.com/proverbs/30-5.htm
Every word of God proves true. He is a shield to all who come to him for protection. English Standard Version

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes.. but the problem is that infants and animals where brought in. That is where it gets hard to justify. One can say "well, that was war.. even during our modern wars innocent people get killed due to the cross fire or just being with in the vicinity of the bomb. However back then it was through the sword in where crossfiring was non-existent unless through archery or catapults but even then these infants and animals where ordered to be killed.

There's a much, much bigger problem, or the same problem?

Every Word of God is True and Perfect and Just and Right, in Perfect Justice and Perfect Judgment and Perfect Mercy....

Man's word falls down, Man's words are hardly ever perfect... yet men trust men - and don't trust God !!!!!!!

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, the excessive violence in the Old Testament has bothered many of us. This is why some of us do not believe that God actually issued all of the commands in the Old Testament. Need an example? How about Exodus 21:15, "Whoever strikes his father or mother must be put to death"?

Jesus upheld this very command.

Matthew 15:4
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Mark 7:10
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Note that the context is dishonoring parents by failing to provide for them; effectively cursing them.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, the excessive violence in the Old Testament has bothered many of us. This is why some of us do not believe that God actually issued all of the commands in the Old Testament. Need an example? How about Exodus 21:15, "Whoever strikes his father or mother must be put to death"?

I’ve always seen this view as partial Marcionism.

 

[redleghunter]

The natural mind cannot grasp the truth.

Even calling that verse an example of an atrocity is carnal, not spiritual.

.... ... what does God call it, and did God give a reason for it ? (in Scripture)...

that's another possible key to understanding ....

yet in any case, God is always Perfect, in Wisdom, Judgment, Justice and Mercy, Perfect in Every Way. Even when not understood ........

Yes judgment. They had 400 years to repent of their ways like Nineveh did with Jonah.

 

[redleghunter]

ok. but lets also be aware that we have to help those with "natural minds" come into understanding with all of these. It's good to have a good rational answer in defending what we believe. but i do understand what you are saying.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[Dkh587]

Yes.. but the problem is that infants and animals where brought in. That is where it gets hard to justify. One can say "well, that was war.. even during our modern wars innocent people get killed due to the cross fire or just being with in the vicinity of the bomb. However back then it was through the sword in where crossfiring was non-existent unless through archery or catapults but even then these infants and animals where ordered to be killed.

It is tough to process children being killed, but children and adults do get punished for the actions of others.

There is a story (Joshua 7) where an Israelite kept something in a tent that he was not supposed to have, and the entire nation of Israel suffered because of it. Our actions have long reaching consequences sometimes and can/do affect more than just us.

God constantly warned the Israelites about not following after the evil ways of the pagan nations and told them that he was bringing judgement on them because of their wickedness. Children are affected by their parents choices all the time in life.

God didn’t just pop up out of the blue and say “hey, I think I wanna kill some babies today”. He was judging wicked and abominable people.

 

[redleghunter]

I love your answer, and this is also my view. However, just to play devils advocate.. doesn't this raise the question to secularists on the good commandments as well?

Yes. Their entire motive is to have Christians conduct autosarcophagy

 

[redleghunter]

Yes.. but the problem is that infants and animals where brought in. That is where it gets hard to justify.

Not if we trust God to do what is righteous and just with the children.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

In antiquity, such meting out such treatment to enemies wasn't even questioned. They don't realize it, but they're actually condemning those biblical passages for not being Christian enough.

 

[Varangian Christian]

God gives all life and God takes all life away. Life only exists because God sustains it and death only occurs when God takes it back unto Himself. Furthermore God is the author of morality, truth, justice, etc., all of these things deriving from Him and not the other way around. Therefore, anything God does or commands is automatically good no matter what it is. Evil, wrong, lies, these are all things which are the opposite of God.

What is the difference between God commanding the killing of infants and God simply taking their lives in their sleep? How is it wrong for God to command the killing of infants if by definition "wrong" is the opposite of whatever He commands or does?

There is no real problem here just as there is no "problem of evil". Whatever God does or commands is good. Any problem in applying His commands or in understanding His will is solely the fault of finite and emotional man who too often believes he gets to decide what is right or wrong.