The Vatican and Nazi war criminals

[NewToLife]

No, I'm not kidding myself. The Muslims could have succeeded, Islam could have been the state religion, but none of that would have been able to halt the spreading of the Word of God. Nothing can destroy the Word of God. It will always prevail.

So, no it's not because of the Catholic church or the Crusades that I believe and am a Christian, it is because of God. I will credit no man for the Work of God.

I think you are guilty of false dichotomy here, it needn't be an either or question. For the record in the areas that Islam did establish itself its entirely clear that the spread of the word of God has indeed been prevented to a large degree, blindly asserting that it cannot be so is not a compelling arguement in the face of historical reality.

For myself I would say that by the Grace of God Europe did not fall to the Turks and Islam, that does not alter the role that Catholics played in the defense of Europe, neither is it necessarily inconsistent with the observation that without such a defense you would most likely be a Muslim.

You will note that this position recognises the reality of historical fact without diminishing God's sovereignty. Reason need not be the enemy of faith, in fact it has a long history in the service of the Church.

 

[Rion]

I think you are guilty of false dichotomy here, it needn't be an either or question. For the record in the areas that Islam did establish itself its entirely clear that the spread of the word of God has indeed been prevented to a large degree, blindly asserting that it cannot be so is not a compelling arguement in the face of historical reality.

For myself I would say that by the Grace of God Europe did not fall to the Turks and Islam, that does not alter the role that Catholics played in the defense of Europe, neither is it necessarily inconsistent with the observation that without such a defense you would most likely be a Muslim.

You will note that this position recognises the reality of historical fact without diminishing God's sovereignty. Reason need not be the enemy of faith, in fact it has a long history in the service of the Church.

I think he means that God would've found another way, had the Catholic Church done nothing/had not been there. Christ said to give all glory to Him through Whom we do everything, and not boast of our own works. While they played a major role, I give thanks to God for it. Nor do I think the positive role they played in the Crusades excuses anything else they've done. I'm not judging them, but like every other denomination their fruit is of mixed quality.

 

[leothelioness]

I think he means that God would've found another way, had the Catholic Church done nothing/had not been there.

Just to let you know I'm a she. And, yes, that is what I meant. Also the fact that God's Word cannot be destroyed no matter the circumstances.

Many attempts were made by pagan emporers, Jewish zealots and Moslems to destroy the Scriptures, halt the spread of the Word and rid the earth of Christianity and it's followers, but to no avail. That is evidence enough for me (and should be for everyone) that God's Word cannot be destroyed and is indeed here to stay.

 

[jasper123]

The vatican protected alot of Nazi's because they were
good at stoping the communists, which at this time
was very dangerous to the Church. It was a way
of defense.

The inquistion was brought about from many coverts
spreading herasy. Only those baptised came under
its banner, no one else.

If you look at a map dated 1947 were isreal is today
you will find it called palestine. The Vatican disapproved
because the palestinians were driven off there land
by gun point. I don't blame the Vatican for saying
no to murder and displacent of millions.
Ron

 

[leothelioness]

The vatican protected alot of Nazi's because they were
good at stoping the communists, which at this time
was very dangerous to the Church. It was a way
of defense.

So you're the only Catholic that has acknowledged that the Vatican helped the Nazis.

Thank you for the explanation. I started this thread to understand why the Vatican helped the Nazis and you are the only one here who has provided an answer.

So far all the other Catholics here dodged the question and outright denied the involvement of the Vatican with the Nazi's. At least you were brave enough to admit the Vatican's involvement and give an explanation for it. Thank you.

If you look at a map dated 1947 were isreal is today
you will find it called palestine. The Vatican disapproved
because the palestinians were driven off there land
by gun point. I don't blame the Vatican for saying
no to murder and displacent of millions.

The thing that the Vatican did not see is that this land belonged to the Jews thousand of years before it belonged to the Arabs.

It was given to the Jews by God and the Arabs forcibly tore the Jews from their land and inhabited it.

So no, the Arabs were not being forced from their land because it wasn't their land. It was the land that was rightly given to the Jews by God.

At least the state of Israel was restored.

 

[GorrionGris]

So you're the only Catholic that has acknowledged that the Vatican helped the Nazis.

Thank you for the explanation. I started this thread to understand why the Vatican helped the Nazis and you are the only one here who has provided an answer.

So far all the other Catholics here dodged the question and outright denied the involvement of the Vatican with the Nazi's. At least you were brave enough to admit the Vatican's involvement and give an explanation for it. Thank you.

The thing that the Vatican did not see is that this land belonged to the Jews thousand of years before it belonged to the Arabs.

It was given to the Jews by God and the Arabs forcibly tore the Jews from their land and inhabited it.

So no, the Arabs were not being forced from their land because it wasn't their land. It was the land that was rightly given to the Jews by God.

At least the state of Israel was restored.

If they agree with you, you praise them. No big feat.

 

[thereselittleflower]

So you're the only Catholic that has acknowledged that the Vatican helped the Nazis.

Thank you for the explanation. I started this thread to understand why the Vatican helped the Nazis and you are the only one here who has provided an answer.

So far all the other Catholics here dodged the question and outright denied the involvement of the Vatican with the Nazi's. At least you were brave enough to admit the Vatican's involvement and give an explanation for it. Thank you.

I am not going to get into this issue, as I don't believe that the two of you are seeing eye to eye at all . . .

but I am going to address the next one:

The thing that the Vatican did not see is that this land belonged to the Jews thousand of years before it belonged to the Arabs.

It was given to the Jews by God and the Arabs forcibly tore the Jews from their land and inhabited it.

So no, the Arabs were not being forced from their land because it wasn't their land. It was the land that was rightly given to the Jews by God.

HORSEFEATHERS!

The Jews had no more right to that land than you or me. They were dispossessed by God almost
2000 years ago and their time as a nation was over. Done, Finished. Their time was never to be forever as in unending. Their time was for an age, and that age ended almost 2000 years ago . . . would you like to get into the scriptural and historical proofs for that?

The Vatican was dead on the money . . .

[OLOR=#0000ff]At least the state of Israel was restored. [/COLOR]

Nope! A zionist secular state that has nothing to do with the nation of Israel in the OT was created with ashkenazi Jews in power, not those of Jewish descent.


.

 

[Harlan Norris]

I was watching a show on the History Channel a while back about the Vatican aiding Nazi war criminals in their escape from justice.

I was just wondering why did the Vatican aid these Nazi war criminals? Was it because the Vatican was sympathetic to Musselini (sp?) who was allied with Hitler?

The Catholic Church has also had a long history of anti-Semitism (the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition for example) so could it have been because of that?

Also, why did the Vatican object to the founding of the State of Israel?

These are questions that I would really like to know the answer to. I thought maybe the Catholics on here could help me to understand a bit better. This thread is not intended to insult so please keep it civil.

This is what happenes when church and state are mixed.The church becomes controlled by the state and can't funtion.The church should never take sides politically,but should never stand idle while while atrocities are commited, for it's own sake.Look at todays church.This war were are in is an abomination,but the church has joined with the state to agree with it,even promote it. From a Christian point of view, this is a 180 degree departure from scripture.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Some thoughts....


1. He who is without sin, cast the first stone.


2. For nearly 1700 years, church and state have often hugged - usually for less than noble reasons on both sides. Nearly always, the church has gotten the short end of the stick.



Just my $0.005...


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[GorrionGris]

This is what happenes when church and state are mixed.The church becomes controlled by the state and can't funtion.The church should never take sides politically,but should never stand idle while while atrocities are commited, for it's own sake.Look at todays church.This war were are in is an abomination,but the church has joined with the state to agree with it,even promote it. From a Christian point of view, this is a 180 degree departure from scripture.

Which Church was mixed with which state?

 

[Tonks]

I was watching a show on the History Channel a while back about the Vatican aiding Nazi war criminals in their escape from justice.

I was just wondering why did the Vatican aid these Nazi war criminals? Was it because the Vatican was sympathetic to Musselini (sp?) who was allied with Hitler?

Before we blame Catholics and Rome for "aiding Nazi war criminals" maybe we should blame German Protestants for becoming Nazis in the first place.

Not that I believe any of this, mind you, but I think that it goes to show that one cannot really attempt to lay the blame at the feet of one single group.

 

[Rion]

Wasn't the reason they did that due to the RCC already having an anti-death penalty policy? I don't think they aided them out of sympathy of policies, but because they didn't believe in executing anyone. Good intentions can lead you to do really stupid things.

 

[Tonks]

Wasn't the reason they did that due to the RCC already having an anti-death penalty policy? I don't think they aided them out of sympathy of policies, but because they didn't believe in executing anyone. Good intentions can lead you to do really stupid things.

Catholics allow the death penalty under certain circumstances. It isn't the preferred COA but it is allowable.

 

[leothelioness]

If they agree with you, you praise them. No big feat.

He didn't agree with me and I didn't praise him. He simply answered the question instead of just coming on here and acting stupid and I simply thanked him for that.

 

[leothelioness]

HORSEFEATHERS!

The Jews had no more right to that land than you or me. They were dispossessed by God almost
2000 years ago and their time as a nation was over. Done, Finished. Their time was never to be forever as in unending. Their time was for an age, and that age ended almost 2000 years ago . . . would you like to get into the scriptural and historical proofs for that?

The Vatican was dead on the money . . .



Nope! A zionist secular state that has nothing to do with the nation of Israel in the OT was created with ashkenazi Jews in power, not those of Jewish descent.

This is the type of dangerous ideology taught by the Catholic church that leads to anti-Semitism.

The Jews were not dispossessed by God. He allowed them to suffer at the hands of their enemies, but He never completely abandoned them. They are still His People. This is evidenced by the parable of the olive tree.

God did not abandon His people for another people, but grafted in all other peoples of the world with His people Israel. Because of that both Jews and Gentiles are the people of God.

If you care to read the OT prophecies regarding Israel you will find that it does speak of the Jews being dispersed from their homeland, but it also makes it very clear that Israel would one day be restored.

 

[Harlan Norris]

Which Church was mixed with which state?

Fundamentalist churches in the US. Have decided that in order to cleanse an evil nation,they needed to place a certain individual in office.They did this instead of trusting in God's ability to change hearts.So, the things they wanted,they did not get.The things that nobody wants,war and the fear of terrorism,we now have those in abundance.Just because this is the US,does not mean we cannot do the deeds of other nations gone wrong.God is in control of the affairs of men.However,he has given us a complete set of instructions on how to avoid becomming part of the problem.The fortunate ones have it in their heart to do the will of God,as it's written in scripture.The rest will go their own way.

 

[Christian Soldier]

The Myth of Hitler's Pope

by Rabbi David Dalin

"Was Pope Pius XII secretly in league with Adolf Hitler? No, says Rabbi David G. Dalin—but there was a cleric in league with Hitler: the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini. As Pope Pius XII worked to save Jews from the Nazis, the grand mufti became Hitler’s staunch ally and a promoter of the Holocaust, with a legacy that feeds radical Islam today. In this shocking and thoroughly documented book, Rabbi Dalin explodes the myth of Hitler’s pope and condemns the myth-makers for not only rewriting history, but for denying the testimony of Holocaust survivors, hijacking the Holocaust for unseemly political ends, and ignoring the real threat to the Jewish people. In The Myth of Hitler’s Pope, you’ll learn: · The true history of Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust—how the Catholic Church did more than any other religious body to save Jewish lives · The real history of the Church and the Nazis—including the Nazi plan to kidnap the pope · The real agenda of the myth-makers: hijacking the Holocaust to attack the very idea of the papacy—especially the papacy of the late Pope John Paul II—as well as Christianity and traditional religion as a whole · Hitler’s cleric—Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who advised and assisted the Nazis in carrying out Hitler’s Final Solution · How Pope Pius XII rescued Jews—and deserves to be called a "righteous gentile"—while the grand mufti of Jerusalem called for their extermination. Full of shocking and irrefutable detail, The Myth of Hitler’s Pope is sure to generate controversy, and more important, to set the record straight. If you want the truth about Pope Pius XII, about the Catholic Church, the Jews, and the Holocaust, and about how the myth of Hitler’s pope plays into the culture wars of our own time—and how the fact of Hitler’s mufti is a vital source of radical Islam today—you must begin here."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/pr.../002-7620202-1787250?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Any one see the movie "The Scarlet and the Black"?

Great movie that shows the relationship of the Nazis to that of the Catholic Church. It stars Gregory Peck and tells the story of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty.

Wikipedia offers some on Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O'Flaherty

Quote:
In the early years of World War II, O'Flaherty toured prisoner of war camps in Italy and tried to find out prisoners who had been reported missing in action. If he found them alive, he tried to reassure their families through Vatican Radio.
When Italy changed sides in 1943, thousands of British POWs were released. Some of them, remembering visits of O'Flaherty, reached Rome and asked him for help. Others went to the Irish legation, the only English-speaking one to remain open in Rome during the war. Delia Murphy, who was the wife of the ambassador and in her day a well-known ballad singer, was one of those who helped O'Flaherty.[1]
O'Flaherty did not wait for permission from his superiors. He recruited the help of other priests, two agents working for Free French and even communists and a Swiss count. One of his aides was British Colonel Sam Derry. He also kept contact with Sir D'Arcy Osborne, British Ambassador to the Vatican. O'Flaherty and his allies concealed 4000 escapees - Allied soldiers and Jews - in flats, farms and convents. One of the hideouts was beside the local SS headquarters. O'Flaherty coordinated all this and when he was visiting outside Vatican, he wore various disguises.
The German occupiers of Rome tried to stop him and eventually they found out that the leader of the network was a priest. SS attempts to assassinate him failed. They found out his identity but they could not arrest him inside the Vatican. When the German ambassador revealed this to O'Flaherty, he began to meet his contacts on the stairs of the St. Peter's Basilica.
Together with Msgr. O'Flaherty worked in secret several others including priests, nuns and lay people, who even hid refugees in their own private homes around Rome. Among these we find Augustinian Maltese Fathers, Egidio Galea (the last surviving Friar who died on January 3, 2005 aged 86), Aurelio Borg, Ugolino Gatt and Brother Robert. Another person who contributed significantly to this operation was the Malta-born Chetta Chevalier, who hid some refugees in her house with her children [citation needed]. Jewish religious services were conducted in the Basilica di San Clemente under a painting of Tobias. The Basilica was under Irish diplomatic protection.[2]
When the Allies arrived in Rome in June 1944, 3925 of the escapees were still alive. O'Flaherty demanded that German prisoners should be treated properly as well. He took a plane to South Africa to meet Italian POWs and to Jerusalem to visit Jewish refugees. He even visited the imprisoned SS chief of Rome, Colonel Herbert Kappler, in prison - month after month - and in 1959 Kappler converted to Catholicism [3]
Of the 9,700 Jews in Rome, 1,007 were shipped to Auschwitz. The rest were hidden, 5,000 of them by the official Church--3,000 in Castel Gandolfo, 200 or 400 (estimates vary) as "members" of the Palatine Guard and some 1,500 in monasteries, convents and colleges. The remaining 3,700 were hidden in private homes.

 

[JesusWasAnInsurgent]

The pope and the rest of the "christian" world didn't care that Jews were being murdered by the gas chamber load. Even when the christian world knew about it they only reacted when they realized that it made them look bad for allowing the genocide to continue. Deep down christians got a lot of satisfaction knowing that christ killers were rounded up and killed. Nothing promotes hatred and bigotry more than religion.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The pope and the rest of the "christian" world didn't care that Jews were being murdered by the gas chamber load. Even when the christian world knew about it they only reacted when they realized that it made them look bad for allowing the genocide to continue. Deep down christians got a lot of satisfaction knowing that christ killers were rounded up and killed. Nothing promotes hatred and bigotry more than religion.

I wonder why people like you read the first post and ignore everything else.

You know how I know you did this? Becasue there is historical facts they show the Catholic Church was helping those persecuted by the Nazis and risking their lives in doing it. Just look at the post above yours.


(rolls eyes)