The US broke another record this year.

[RileyG]

This news is horrifying.

 

[Desk trauma]

This news is horrifying.

Just wait until we top it this year. We’re #1!

 

[Whyayeman]

This news is horrifying.

Not horrifying enough, though. Post #10 rehashed an old NRA chestnut, and no doubt many more will follow.

My main inference from the new death toll record is that many Americans have become indifferent to slaughter. I predict that this thread will confirm my view.

 

[Miles]

Which gun culture are we talking about? I am concerned about criminals owning guns. Illegal guns are part of criminal culture, but I'm not concerned about typical firearm enthusiasts. People who buy guns legally, practice at firing ranges, are licensed for concealed carry etc. aren't a threat. If anything, the latter arguably helps protect us against the former.

The crux of the issue hinges on two key points. Law-abiding citizens usually comply with the law whereas criminals do not. However, firearms stolen or otherwise obtained on the black market are partly a product of having so many guns to begin with. It's nice to think that simply outlawing guns will remove the threat, but given the quantity of guns already out there I don't think passing laws (which only work on law-abiding citizens) is a realistic solution. At least not in the short-run. Unless we want to give armed criminals free-reign.

Cracking down harder on the illegal weapon trade might net the biggest short-run gains, which combined with new laws for people who already obey the law might make a difference, but that's a big ask for our law enforcement officers.

Which isn't to suggest that there aren't school shootings committed with legal firearms. There are. I just think the problem runs deeper than that. If new laws are passed, perhaps those laws might contain something about using more secure gun safes so kids can't get hold of their parents' guns.

 

[Whyayeman]

Which gun culture are we talking about? I am concerned about criminals owning guns. Illegal guns are part of criminal culture, but I'm not concerned about typical firearm enthusiasts. People who buy guns legally, practice at firing ranges, are licensed for concealed carry etc. aren't a threat. If anything, the latter arguably helps protect us against the former.

The crux of the issue hinges on two key points. Law-abiding citizens usually comply with the law whereas criminals do not. However, firearms stolen or otherwise obtained on the black market are partly a product of having so many guns to begin with. It's nice to think that simply outlawing guns will remove the threat, but given the quantity of guns already out there I don't think passing laws (which only work on law-abiding citizens) is a realistic solution. At least not in the short-run. Unless we want to give armed criminals free-reign.

Cracking down harder on the illegal weapon trade might net the biggest short-run gains, which combined with new laws for people who already obey the law might make a difference, but that's a big ask for our law enforcement officers.

Which isn't to suggest that there aren't school shootings committed with legal firearms. There are. I just think the problem runs deeper than that. If new laws are passed, perhaps those laws might contain something about using more secure gun safes so kids can't get hold of their parents' guns.

A great many mass shootings - and nearly all school shootings - are carried out by people who have no criminal record using legally obtained weapons, so that is the crux of the issue. And of course once that trigger is pulled another criminal has arrived. Merely putting stronger locks on gun cupboards is futile. Guns are everywhere; in bedside drawers, under the kitchen table, on the streets.

I agree that the American problem with mass killings almost every day is very deep and will not be solved merely by legislation. There is already legislation and it does not work. With the enormous number of guns in America already radical measures are called for and there is no appetite for change.

I suggest that a tiny first step would be to crack down on the legal trade. Absolutely anybody can obtain a gun. The existing legal checks are a farce.

 

[Miles]

A great many mass shootings - and nearly all school shootings - are carried out by people who have no criminal record using legally obtained weapons, so that is the crux of the issue. And of course once that trigger is pulled another criminal has arrived. Merely putting stronger locks on gun cupboards is futile. Guns are everywhere; in bedside drawers, under the kitchen table, on the streets.

I agree that the American problem with mass killings almost every day is very deep and will not be solved merely by legislation. There is already legislation and it does not work. With the enormous number of guns in America already radical measures are called for and there is no appetite for change.

I suggest that a tiny first step would be to crack down on the legal trade. Absolutely anybody can obtain a gun. The existing legal checks are a farce.

If we acknowledge only one side of the issue... either the sheer quantity of guns out there (too many) or the fact that criminals do not comply with firearm legislation... I frankly don't see us making meaningful progress.

The children who commit most school shootings do not legally obtain the guns. By law children are not allowed to purchase firearms. The weapons often come from their parents. Better gun lockers paired with legislation that requires legal gun owners to keep them securely locked away, some kind of standardized safety protocol, should make a meaningful difference.

I support better gun legislation, even for legal gun owners, but illegally-obtained guns are a bigger problem where I live than legal gun culture. I'm talking about numbers of people killed rather than specific to school shootings. That admittedly colors my view. But like I said, I think we need to acknowledge both sides of the greater firearm debate.

We can start by better enforcement of existing gun laws.

 

[RileyG]

Just wait until we top it this year. We’re #1!

I have no words left .

 

[RileyG]

Not horrifying enough, though. Post #10 rehashed an old NRA chestnut, and no doubt many more will follow.

My main inference from the new death toll record is that many Americans have become indifferent to slaughter. I predict that this thread will confirm my view.

You're so right, sadly.

 

[Nithavela]

Mass shootings in US with four or more deaths hit highest level since at least 2006

There have been more mass shootings with four or more deaths in 2023 than in any year since at least 2006, according to The Washington Post’s gun violence database. There have been 38 such mas…

www.google.com

We have broke the record of the number of mass shootings from the high of last year.

Something to cheer about? Not really. It may be time to look at our gun culture and guns in our culture and work on a new way.

 

[Desk trauma]

I have no words left .

Take pride of n what we’re willing to sacrifice.

 

[Paulos23]

Thanks, such and honor.

 

[expos4ever]

Guns are incapable of committing violence. They are not sentient.

This misleading argument gets trotted out again and again and again even though it is wrong in such an obvious way.

The fact that a gun cannot "act" on its own is obviously not the point - it is a very effective enabler for human beings intent of wreaking death and destruction.

The "gun is just a tool incapable of acting" is very bad argument - it needs to go.

 

[Whyayeman]

This misleading argument gets trotted out again and again and again even though it is wrong in such an obvious way.

The fact that a gun cannot "act" on its own is obviously not the point - it is a very effective enabler for human beings intent of wreaking death and destruction.

The "gun is just a tool incapable of acting" is very bad argument - it needs to go.

Yes, the idea was put about by the NRA and it still gets trotted out as a piece of folksy wisdom by apologists for unlimited gun ownership.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This misleading argument gets trotted out again and again and again even though it is wrong in such an obvious way.

The fact that a gun cannot "act" on its own is obviously not the point - it is a very effective enabler for human beings intent of wreaking death and destruction.

The "gun is just a tool incapable of acting" is very bad argument - it needs to go.

Except for the fact it is true. People commit violence, not pieces of metal. After all the inanimate pieces of metal are eliminated, the violence will continue with knives, clubs, bombs, axes, and any other object that can do harm.. including the fist. I suppose if we got rid of forks, obesity would go down drastically. If we got rid of cars, there would be no more drunk drivers! I know... close all hospitals and fire all doctors. No more sickness!
It is exceedingly easy for any guy with a machine shop to build guns. It is not rocket science. It would become an underground industry. A whole new mafia crime. Someone wanting to mow down innocents will find a gun. Criminals do not care about laws... that is the definition of criminals. They will find and use guns.
Address the real problem and stop avoiding it by blaming inanimate objects. Find out why people want to kill each other. Why is it so easy for Americans to murder innocents? Where did this come from? There were plenty of guns in pre-mass shooting days. Were guns just better inanimate objects back then? So what changed? Do you think murdering 65 million babies might de-sensitize the population to the killing of innocents? How about the non-strop drivel of violent movies and TV shows? How about the bombing of civilians and endless wars that we volunteer to participate in? There is good money in war! Life has become cheap. Perhaps there is a lack of mental illness treatment centers. All these would deal with the root cause.

 

[expos4ever]

Yes, the idea was put about by the NRA and it still gets trotted out as a piece of folksy wisdom by apologists for unlimited gun ownership.

Calling it "folksy wisdom" is giving more credit than is due.

It is a patently false argument.

 

[Whyayeman]

It is exceedingly easy for any guy with a machine shop to build guns. It is not rocket science. It would become an underground industry. A whole new mafia crime. Someone wanting to mow down innocents will find a gun. Criminals do not care about laws... that is the definition of criminals. They will find and use guns.

You have missed the point so completely I hardly know where to start.

First: most of the mass shootings have been carried out by people who were not criminals; it is so easy to 'find' a gun in America that a psychotic adolescent need look no further than his laptop; it is not easy to make guns and that is why all guns in America are bought retail from the hundreds of bargains available in every town in the country.

Second: the attitude that there is some criminal class responsible for mass killings completely ignores the fact that otherwise well brought-up troubled adolescents commit these atrocities and then turn their weapons on themselves.

Third: there are very few home-made guns involved in mass killings. Actually, there are very few home-made guns as a proportion of the millions of guns in America.

 

[Chrystal-J]

Guns are incapable of committing violence. They are not sentient. They can no more be violent by choice than a tree or a butterfly.
People are violent. Why is there no respect for life and property? Why are families declining and crime overall increasing? Why do half of marriages end in divorce? Why are 40% of children born out of wedlock? Why has the number of LGBTQ teens increased 10 fold from the boomer generation to the genz? Why do people feel entitled to do the criminal things they are doing? Find out what has happened to people in the US over the last 50 years to cause them to be more violent, immoral, and ungodly. You will have the answer.

I agree. If they took away guns, people would just start bombing places like Timothy McVeigh. There's something wrong with society that is causing these shootings.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Mass shootings in US with four or more deaths hit highest level since at least 2006

There have been more mass shootings with four or more deaths in 2023 than in any year since at least 2006, according to The Washington Post’s gun violence database. There have been 38 such mas…

www.google.com

We have broke the record of the number of mass shootings from the high of last year.

Something to cheer about? Not really. It may be time to look at our gun culture and guns in our culture and work on a new way.

I think maybe we need to examine a culture that holds no value to human life.

We had tons of gun ownership when I was growing up, and school shootings didn't exist.

As we value family less and less and life less and less, more and more we see life itself as something to be held in disregard and extinguished at will.

 

[expos4ever]

Except for the fact it is true.

No, it is a misleading argument intended to trip people up. It is beyond obvious that just because something is not able to "act on its own", it cannot therefore be a problem.

This is clearly nonsense. 1000 men seething with anger at the world and armed with guns are much more of a problem than 1000 men seething with anger and armed with butter knives.

People commit violence, not pieces of metal.

Profoundly misleading as already explained.

After all the inanimate pieces of metal are eliminated, the violence will continue with knives, clubs, bombs, axes, and any other object that can do harm.. including the fist.

Where is your evidence for this claim? There is reason to be skeptical: From a Study published in the New England Journal of Medecince in 2008 (authors = Miller and Hemenway)

The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling. There are at least a dozen U.S. case–control studies in the peer-reviewed literature, all of which have found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of suicide. The increase in risk is large, typically 2 to 10 times that in homes without guns, depending on the sample population (e.g., adolescents vs. older adults) and on the way in which the firearms were stored. The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households.

The key point is this: when there is no gun, people do not always substitute another means to kill themselves. You are implying that if people want to kill, they will find a way if they are denied guns. This study shows that this is not the case, at least in cases where the target is oneself.

Even apart from such evidence, there are common sense reasons to be skeptical of your claim, as guns are a much easier way to kill than with knives and fists. How is this not obvious - all you need to do is pull a trigger at a safe distance.

 

[expos4ever]

Address the real problem and stop avoiding it by blaming inanimate objects. Find out why people want to kill each other.

What is easier and less expensive - to control access to guns or to tackle the complex psychological issues that cause people to kill.

The answer is, I suggest, rather obvious.