the universe

[tansy]

Please give your answers as simply as possible. My maths. abilities are pretty near zero, and I know next to nothing about science. Nonetheless, I'm curious to know your thoughts on this.

Do you think the universe is finite or infinite?

And I know this sounds like a silly question, but are there any absolute measurements?

I mean, can something be exactly 2 inches from something else, or would it in reality be something more like 2.9" recurring - in which case, is that measurement infinite - or does it just disappear eventually into some kind of "black hole"?

Is there anything that uis truly finite?

Christians say that we are finite beings, which I understand in one sense - but what exactly is the meaning of finite?

Hope these questions make sense - if they don't it's because of the finite parameters of my mental capacity!

 

[Hespera]

Please give your answers as simply as possible. My maths. abilities are pretty near zero, and I know next to nothing about science. Nonetheless, I'm curious to know your thoughts on this.

Do you think the universe is finite or infinite?

And I know this sounds like a silly question, but are there any absolute measurements?

I mean, can something be exactly 2 inches from something else, or would it in reality be something more like 2.9" recurring - in which case, is that measurement infinite - or does it just disappear eventually into some kind of "black hole"?

Is there anything that uis truly finite?

Christians say that we are finite beings, which I understand in one sense - but what exactly is the meaning of finite?

Hope these questions make sense - if they don't it's because of the finite parameters of my mental capacity!

Numbers can certainly go into infinity. Express 2/3 as a decimal.
There is nothing profound in that tho. it just means that base ten math isnt good for expressing that number.

you can try to find the end of a circle, by going around. an infinite number of trips around wont get you to the end.


Not sure what you mean by an absolute measurement. Anything that people try to measure, you wont get it exact. There are no straight lines anywhere in the universe. Talking about absolutes wont really get you anywhere.

The universe as understood by astrophysicists is not infinite; it is curved;
go in what you think is a straight line and you end up where you started. ( a LONG time later)

As for grasoing some of the deeper secrets of the universe i think we may be about like a turtle trying to read a book. We dont have the capactiy for it.

 

[visionary]

I think that there is an edge to the universe. I also think that God is in the next dimension. Just as we know there are atoms to our universe that we live in... so it is that God knows us as atoms in His.

There was this story about the time when the observatory was being placed in Hawaii. It was the largest in the then known world and the scientists decided to focus in on the Orion Nebula as it is known to be the birth place of the starts. The scientist on that first night anxiously waited until the Nebula turned so that he could look down the center. The Nebula is shaped like a horn of plenty and rarely does its mouth turn towards earth, so it was a major event the scientists were anxiously waiting to see. What the scientist described was that as the horn turned and he could view down through the mouth was that it was like entering into another room and what he saw was a crystal city...

 

[Hespera]

I think that there is an edge to the universe. I also think that God is in the next dimension. Just as we know there are atoms to our universe that we live in... so it is that God knows us as atoms in His.

There was this story about the time when the observatory was being placed in Hawaii. It was the largest in the then known world and the scientists decided to focus in on the Orion Nebula as it is known to be the birth place of the starts. The scientist on that first night anxiously waited until the Nebula turned so that he could look down the center. The Nebula is shaped like a horn of plenty and rarely does its mouth turn towards earth, so it was a major event the scientists were anxiously waiting to see. What the scientist described was that as the horn turned and he could view down through the mouth was that it was like entering into another room and what he saw was a crystal city...

So when you get to the "edge' then what?

You got the story wrong. What happened was that they looked way way far. There was a wall! When they got it in focus it said (in many many languages, took weeks to find where it was in an earth language), it said


"Halt! this is the edge of the universe!"

But there was a peephole like at a construciton site. So they focused focused and looked thru.

Sure enough, there was nothing there!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Do you think the universe is finite or infinite?

As per my understanding of the Big Bang, the universe has been expanding at a finite rate for a finite time. Thus, the universe is finite in size.

That said, I'm assuming you're referring to its size. There are other meanings (bound/unbound, etc).

And I know this sounds like a silly question, but are there any absolute measurements?

I mean, can something be exactly 2 inches from something else, or would it in reality be something more like 2.9" recurring - in which case, is that measurement infinite - or does it just disappear eventually into some kind of "black hole"?

2.999... inches is finite. Just because its decimal representation is infinitely long (that is, there are an infinite number of 9s after the decimal point), doesn't mean the number itself is infinitely large. Indeed, no number is infinitely large.

To that end, we can say: yes, there are absolute measurements. The distance between me and my stick of Toblerone is a finite number (though it is impossible to determine the exact value of that number).

Is there anything that uis truly finite?

Again, that depends on what you mean by 'finite'. If you mean size, then yes: the Earth, for instance, is a particular size.

Christians say that we are finite beings, which I understand in one sense - but what exactly is the meaning of finite?

It doesn't mean anything. They use the stark contrast between finiteness and infiniteness to compare us mortals with God. We are 'finite' insofar as God is 'infinite'; the terms are being used incorrectly, but they're only being used analogously anyway.

 

[tansy]

Numbers can certainly go into infinity. Express 2/3 as a decimal.
There is nothing profound in that tho. it just means that base ten math isnt good for expressing that number.

So does that mean a different base could express it more accurately (Forgive my obtuseness)

you can try to find the end of a circle, by going around. an infinite number of trips around wont get you to the end.

Ah...maybe that could be a way of understanding infinity


Not sure what you mean by an absolute measurement. Anything that people try to measure, you wont get it exact. There are no straight lines anywhere in the universe. Talking about absolutes wont really get you anywhere.

The universe as understood by astrophysicists is not infinite; it is curved;
go in what you think is a straight line and you end up where you started. ( a LONG time later)

Yes, I'd heard something along those lines before....interesting.

As for grasoing some of the deeper secrets of the universe i think we may be about like a turtle trying to read a book. We dont have the capactiy for it.

Still, we may yet be able to understand more.



Sorry, my comments have come out as though they were part of your post....but my comments are in bold, so hopefully, it will be comprehensible. Am afraid I still haven't got the hang of quoting bits of a post , putting my comments, but them being separate, if you see what I mean.

 

[tansy]

Numbers can certainly go into infinity. Express 2/3 as a decimal.
There is nothing profound in that tho. it just means that base ten math isnt good for expressing that number.

you can try to find the end of a circle, by going around. an infinite number of trips around wont get you to the end.


Not sure what you mean by an absolute measurement. Anything that people try to measure, you wont get it exact. There are no straight lines anywhere in the universe. Talking about absolutes wont really get you anywhere.

The universe as understood by astrophysicists is not infinite; it is curved;
go in what you think is a straight line and you end up where you started. ( a LONG time later)

As for grasoing some of the deeper secrets of the universe i think we may be about like a turtle trying to read a book. We dont have the capactiy for it.

I think that there is an edge to the universe. I also think that God is in the next dimension. Just as we know there are atoms to our universe that we live in... so it is that God knows us as atoms in His.

There was this story about the time when the observatory was being placed in Hawaii. It was the largest in the then known world and the scientists decided to focus in on the Orion Nebula as it is known to be the birth place of the starts. The scientist on that first night anxiously waited until the Nebula turned so that he could look down the center. The Nebula is shaped like a horn of plenty and rarely does its mouth turn towards earth, so it was a major event the scientists were anxiously waiting to see. What the scientist described was that as the horn turned and he could view down through the mouth was that it was like entering into another room and what he saw was a crystal city...

Is that true! Or just some crazy rumour! Got any links?

 

[Hespera]

As per my understanding of the Big Bang, the universe has been expanding at a finite rate for a finite time. Thus, the universe is finite in size.

That said, I'm assuming you're referring to its size. There are other meanings (bound/unbound, etc).


2.999... inches is finite. Just because its decimal representation is infinitely long (that is, there are an infinite number of 9s after the decimal point), doesn't mean the number itself is infinitely large. Indeed, no number is infinitely large.

To that end, we can say: yes, there are absolute measurements. The distance between me and my stick of Toblerone is a finite number (though it is impossible to determine the exact value of that number).


Again, that depends on what you mean by 'finite'. If you mean size, then yes: the Earth, for instance, is a particular size.


It doesn't mean anything. They use the stark contrast between finiteness and infiniteness to compare us mortals with God. We are 'finite' insofar as God is 'infinite'; the terms are being used incorrectly, but they're only being used analogously anyway.

As I understand it, it turns out the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating.

No number is infinitely large; N+1 takes care of that. But numbers can to on to infinity.

No there are not absolute measurements. Measuring is what people do.
Distances cant be absolute either, not for more than the tiniest imaginable fraction of a second. Any measurement we can do is an approximation.

 

[Hespera]

Is that true! Or just some crazy rumour! Got any links?

use some common sense on this one

 

[tansy]

use some common sense on this one

Well, true! But I did wonder where the story originated. Thought it might be like one of these urban myths.

 

[juvenissun]

Please give your answers as simply as possible. My maths. abilities are pretty near zero, and I know next to nothing about science. Nonetheless, I'm curious to know your thoughts on this.

Do you think the universe is finite or infinite?

And I know this sounds like a silly question, but are there any absolute measurements?

I mean, can something be exactly 2 inches from something else, or would it in reality be something more like 2.9" recurring - in which case, is that measurement infinite - or does it just disappear eventually into some kind of "black hole"?

Is there anything that uis truly finite?

Christians say that we are finite beings, which I understand in one sense - but what exactly is the meaning of finite?

Hope these questions make sense - if they don't it's because of the finite parameters of my mental capacity!

Finite, to us, it means that something is out there but we can not reach and we can not know. So,

If that thing is God, then Christian is finite.
If that thing is the edge of the universe, then the universe is infinite.
If that thing is a measurement, then we can read it to, for example, 4. 2349834584...... inches. It depends on if you wanted to stop the reading or not. If you stopped, the measurement is finite, if you don't, the measurement is infinite. (well, in a sense, it depends on how good are your eyes and how good is your ruler)
If that thing is you, well, the question becomes: how much do you know yourself? It could be either finite or infinite. Only you will know.

May Him bless your heart.

 

[WilliamduBois]

There was this story about the time when the observatory was being placed in Hawaii. It was the largest in the then known world and the scientists decided to focus in on the Orion Nebula as it is known to be the birth place of the starts. The scientist on that first night anxiously waited until the Nebula turned so that he could look down the center. The Nebula is shaped like a horn of plenty and rarely does its mouth turn towards earth, so it was a major event the scientists were anxiously waiting to see. What the scientist described was that as the horn turned and he could view down through the mouth was that it was like entering into another room and what he saw was a crystal city...

Please tell me you don't believe this bulldroppings...

 

[tansy]

Talking about whether or not the universe is finite or if it has an "edge". Would it be possible that for an infinitesimal moment it could have been a vacuum, but as vacuums have to be filled, when God created matter (or for atheists, when matter came into being), could it be that that matter had to start expanding, and very quickly, in order to fill the vacuum.
I'm sure this is prob nonsense, but I'm just letting my thoughts ramble around.

 

[visionary]

Even when we understand the milky way has its limitations, so also do we understand that all universes out there are contained within a certain area of space and travel in a methodical manner that is cyclical [for the most part]... we should understand that it itself must have a rim where we leave this micro organism and enter into God's heaven.. You do know that there are three heavens...

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Our sky is the first heaven
Our universe is the second heaven
God's place is in the third heaven...

 

[tansy]

Even when we understand the milky way has its limitations, so also do we understand that all universes out there are contained within a certain area of space and travel in a methodical manner that is cyclical [for the most part]... we should understand that it itself must have a rim where we leave this micro organism and enter into God's heaven.. You do know that there are three heavens...

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Our sky is the first heaven
Our universe is the second heaven
God's place is in the third heaven...

Yes, that is a way of looking at it...though I'm keeping an open mind about it. Certainly could make sense...I think.

 

[visionary]

Its a thought.. something that God will surely explain and we will see when we live for eternity with Him and He has the time to show us all that He is and He created.

 

[70x7]

The universe is most definatley finite; it does have an end. In order to have an end, something must have a beginning (ala, God created the heavens and the earth). A created being has a destination and an end result. Just because WE do not know where it is should not imply that the end is non existant.

Side note, God was not a created being so therefore He does not have a beginning or and end. God is infinite. Simply, He is.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

As I understand it, it turns out the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating.

Nevertheless, it will always be finite in size.

No number is infinitely large; N+1 takes care of that. But numbers can to on to infinity.

Only insofar as there is no limit to the number of numbers (transcendentalism takes care of that).

No there are not absolute measurements. Measuring is what people do.
Distances cant be absolute either, not for more than the tiniest imaginable fraction of a second. Any measurement we can do is an approximation.

Exactly: though some quantities do have definite values (though quantum mechanics muddles this somewhat), it is in practice impossible to know this precise value. We can only narrow the margin of error.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Talking about whether or not the universe is finite or if it has an "edge". Would it be possible that for an infinitesimal moment it could have been a vacuum, but as vacuums have to be filled, when God created matter (or for atheists, when matter came into being), could it be that that matter had to start expanding, and very quickly, in order to fill the vacuum.
I'm sure this is prob nonsense, but I'm just letting my thoughts ramble around.

I see where you're coming from. However, the thing most people have difficulty understanding is that the universe isn't expanding into something. It's not a tiny pellet of matter that fills out a vacuum, since there is no space in which to fill: the universe was unimaginably tiny, and all the energy in the universe was correspondingly dense.

As the universe expanded, however, the energy spread out to fill this 'new' space. That's pretty much why it's cooled down to an emasculating 2.3K.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The universe is most definatley finite; it does have an end. In order to have an end, something must have a beginning (ala, God created the heavens and the earth).

I disagree. Something can be without beginning or end, without beginning but with an end, with a beginning but without end, or with both beginning and end.

That is, a beginning does not necessitate an end (and vice versa).

A created being has a destination and an end result. Just because WE do not know where it is should not imply that the end is non existant.

Nor does our ignorance mean it does have an end.

Side note, God was not a created being so therefore He does not have a beginning or and end. God is infinite. Simply, He is.

To raise that trite old question: why can't the universe 'just be'?