The Universalist Story has the Wrong Goal

mkgal1 · Aug 10, 2017

bdmulneaux said:
That's it right there. We can love them into Heaven, or judge them into Hell.

That's not quite what I believe.

Our love often isn't enough. I think it's going to take God's genuine love....absent from corruption (and in the language of the Bible....His love is "fire" and "soap").

Malachi 3:2~"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap

Mark Corbett · Aug 10, 2017

mkgal1 said:
For instance.....people that have a love of wealth and material things far more than they love other people

Does mkgal1 stand for "missionary kid gal 1"?

If so, where did you grow up?

I've got some more thoughts I may share about the topic of universalism, but I like to keep in mind that most of us on this forum have in common things vastly more important than the issues we are debating. Of course, I believe the issues we are debating have some importance, or we wouldn't be debating them. Anyways, I hope you don't mind me asking an "off topic" question.

mkgal1 · Aug 10, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
Does mkgal1 stand for "missionary kid gal 1"?

If so, where did you grow up?

No....I wasn't a missionary kid

I have no problem with you asking that.

mkgal1 · Aug 10, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
I've got some more thoughts I may share about the topic of universalism, but I like to keep in mind that most of us on this forum have in common things vastly more important than the issues we are debating. Of course, I believe the issues we are debating have some importance, or we wouldn't be debating them.

I appreciate that attitude.....because this topic isn't something I believe we should or *can* get dogmatic over--there's just not enough clarity. Jesus seemed a lot more interested in how people live their lives NOW and not preoccupied with our afterlife.

bdmulneaux · Aug 10, 2017

mkgal1 said:
That's not quite what I believe.

And that wasn't quite my point.

God chooses to work through us and the imago dei we were created with. We are commanded to love, and the video you posted exemplifies the Gospel message. Obviously God could have freed Israel without Moses; God could have built a temple without Solomon, but God chooses to work through human agency. When we love unconditionally, as the gentlemen in your video, the image of God shines brightly within us. I think that pleases God. The whole of the Law (and the Gospel) rests on the love of God and neighbor. Obviously, it is good to know that God loves us, but we have to remember that we are called to love, and within that love, God works.

Light of the East · Jan 10, 2018

Mark Corbett said:
This is my fourth OP related to the topic of Hell in 6 days. Why open a new thread? Sometimes our discussions are so wide ranging that it is difficult to focus on one specific issue. I am hoping that this thread will help us focus on this specific question: Is God's ultimate goal to save every person or to end up with a world full of people who are like Jesus?

Scripture teaches that it is God's will that all be saved. Not a fond wish, a desire, a forlorn dream, but His will.

So then the question becomes this - can God bring about all His holy will, or can He not?

Mark Corbett · Jan 10, 2018

Light of the East said:
Scripture teaches that it is God's will that all be saved. Not a fond wish, a desire, a forlorn dream, but His will.

So then the question becomes this - can God bring about all His holy will, or can He not?

My brother, I think I understand your question. You are likely referring to these two passages:

NIV 1 Timothy 2:4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

NIV 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

First, the words translated "wants" and "wanting" in the passages above do have a range of meaning which include desire and wish. From a linguistic point of view, your assertion cannot be proven.

But more importantly, the heart of your comment and question remains. Even if the words can refer to a desire rather than an unalterable determination, why can't God get what He desires?

Before applying this to the issue of universal salvation, let's remember that MANY things happen which God does not desire. Children are sexually abused. Women are raped. Civilians are slaughtered, gassed, and burned up. Terrible injustices occur every day. Christians are imprisoned and tortured for being Christians. Does God desire these things? Of course, not. Yet they happen. We need the Bible to deal realistically with the world we live in. A world where tragic things happen which God does not desire.

But since God is all powerful, how can this be?

I believe that God has many desires and that some of these desires conflict. In this way, God is like us. I desire my daughter to be home with us. But I also desire her to get a good college education and be prepared for all He may call her to do. So I sacrifice having her here for a higher good.

I believe something similar is happening with God. God does desire that all people be saved. But God also desires that we be made in His image. And an important part of His image is the ability to truly love as He loves. And that kind of love, I believe, requires a type of free will which allows us to reject God. Perhaps God views it as better to have a world where only some are saved, but those who are saved are capable of true, Christ-like love, than a world where everyone is saved, but we cannot love as He loves.

Does love require free will? I think so. I explain why here.

Grace and Peace, Mark (with Hope and Joy!)

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2018

Light of the East said:
Scripture teaches that it is God's will that all be saved. Not a fond wish, a desire, a forlorn dream, but His will.
So then the question becomes this - can God bring about all His holy will, or can He not?

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just a chosen few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
.....It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
.....This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory," vs. 10.

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Light of the East · Jan 10, 2018

QUOTE= Mark Corbett

I believe something similar is happening with God. God does desire that all people be saved. But God also desires that we be made in His image. And an important part of His image is the ability to truly love as He loves. And that kind of love, I believe, requires a type of free will which allows us to reject God. Perhaps God views it as better to have a world where only some are saved, but those who are saved are capable of true, Christ-like love, than a world where everyone is saved, but we cannot love as He loves.

But then the question becomes whether the person will continue to reject God once the blindness of this sin-cursed life is lifted and one sees God - not as God is imagined or thought to be - as He truly is. The question then becomes one of free-will, because I do agree with you that the essence of love is free-will. If one does not have a choice (free-will) then one cannot love. This is the difference between us and a robot.

No one really knows the answer to this question. We do not have any understanding of the state of the soul after death. There is nothing in Scripture which states unequivocally that repentance is impossible after death.

What we do know, however, is that God is love. And because He IS love (not just that He loves, but His very ontological makeup is love) that He can do no other than to love. Therefore, He will continue to manifest love towards every soul that has ever lived. The Medieval ideas of Dante and the Roman Catholic ideas of that time of God pitching souls into hell and then reveling in the glory that their damnation brings to Him should repulse any thoughtful person.

Love does not seek revenge - love forgives.

Love does not quit - it perseveres.

Love does not hate - it seeks only the best, even for its enemies.

I believe the proper understanding of the next life is found in Holy Orthodoxy. The position of the Orthodox is that all souls are redeemed and brought into the presence of God. Those who have spent this life in repentance, seeking God, doing good works, and deeds of ascesis for the growth of their soul into Christlikeness, shall find the presence of God to be a warming, passionate fire. Scripture states that our God is a burning fire, and that fire is the passion of His love.

But those who have hated God, loved wickedness, and gone their own way, shall find His very presence to be utter torment. This is not God's doing, but man's. The love God expresses to all in the next life is the same for all - the righteous find it joy, the wicked find it torment.

And the question remains - can they change? Traditional Western theology says no. But where is their proof, other than the ruminations of Augustine and Aquinas?

Some links here as food for thought:

The River of Fire - Kalomiros - Glory to God for All Things

And this one on free-will and repentance after death:

God’s Hand & Our Free Will

Mark Corbett · Jan 10, 2018

We agree about a number of things. But there are some areas where we see Scripture differently.

Light of the East said:
. . . . We do not have any understanding of the state of the soul after death. There is nothing in Scripture which states unequivocally that repentance is impossible after death.

Actually, the Bible has revealed enough about the state of the unrighteous after death to allow us to know that repentance for them will be impossible.

You seem to be assuming that the unrighteous will be kept alive in some state. This is not true. The Bible tells us that they will perish (John 3:16). The Bible tells us that both their bodies and souls will be destroyed (Matthew 10:28). And the Bible tells us that they will be burned to ashes. I wrote a post on this last one. Ashes cannot repent.

Ashes Can't Repent

Light of the East · Jan 10, 2018

Your problem is that you think it is a real fire like the fire we experience on earth.

God's word describes the "fire" of the next life.

It is God Himself. (Heb. 12:29)

Now, what does it mean to be "consumed by fire" in the next life? Does that mean destroyed, or does it mean that all that is not of God is consumed, as shown in 1 Corinthians 3: 8-15? I think there is room to understand this in that manner, especially since we go back to the foundation of God being love.

I am, however, open to examining your understanding. I believe Edward Fudge was a great proponent of your understanding, n'est ce pas?

BTW - what verse speaks of sinners being reduced to ashes?

Der Alte · Jan 11, 2018

Light of the East said:
Your problem is that you think it is a real fire like the fire we experience on earth.
God's word describes the "fire" of the next life.
It is God Himself. (Heb. 12:29)
Now, what does it mean to be "consumed by fire" in the next life? Does that mean destroyed, or does it mean that all that is not of God is consumed, as shown in 1 Corinthians 3: 8-15? I think there is room to understand this in that manner, especially since we go back to the foundation of God being love.
I am, however, open to examining your understanding. I believe Edward Fudge was a great proponent of your understanding, n'est ce pas?

Where does scripture say that anyone will be consumed by fire?

BTW - what verse speaks of sinners being reduced to ashes?

Malachi 4:2-3
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mark Corbett · Jan 11, 2018

Light of the East said:
Now, what does it mean to be "consumed by fire" in the next life? Does that mean destroyed, or does it mean that all that is not of God is consumed, as shown in 1 Corinthians 3: 8-15?

Great question!
1 Cor 3:8-15 refers to a type of judgment of the work we do as Christians in this life. Some of it is worthless and will be burned up.

But in Matthew 10:38, Jesus describes what happens to the souls and bodies (not merely the works or attitudes) of the unrighteous who are thrown into hell:

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is one of a number of verses which lead me to conclude that in hell the unrighteous are neither eternally tormented nor purified, but destroyed.

Light of the East said:
I am, however, open to examining your understanding. I believe Edward Fudge was a great proponent of your understanding, n'est ce pas?

You are correct that Edward Fudge was a great proponent of my understanding of the final destiny of the unrighteous. His book, The Fire that Consumes, is still an excellent resource.

Another excellent resource for further study is the Rethinking Hell website. Just about any question or verse or issue related to Conditional Immortality and annihilationism is well addressed there.

Light of the East said:
BTW - what verse speaks of sinners being reduced to ashes?

2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

I discuss the language of this verse, and how other verses using different words teach the same thing, in a post here:

Downburned and Ashified: The Annihilation of the Unrighteous

Hillsage · Jan 12, 2018

Mark Corbett said:
Ashes can’t repent. This is a big problem for the Universalist story.

Ashes don't need to repent. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust has been the judgmental fate of sinful flesh from the beginning. And it appears to apply to Christian and Non Christian based upon all the funerals I've been to.

So throwing ashes into a fire, really doesn't even make sense logically, let alone theologically. Unless ones 'logic' is possibly twisted, to begin with.

Mark Corbett said:
Ashes can’t repent. And the Bible tells us that people who are thrown into the lake of fire are burned to ashes.

I'm afraid you got your 'story' wires crossed/twisted. Ashes are never found in the Revelation, and lake of fire is never found anywhere but the Revelation. I know you think that what you said above supports your cut/pasted theological assumption, but now you hopefullly know why it doesn't fit mine.

Light of the East · Jan 19, 2018

"Mark Corbett Great question!

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

On the face of it, this verse seems to support you, but then we run into this:

Mat 18:11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

But the Greek word which is translated "lost" in 18:11 is apollymi, which is the same which is used for destroy in 10:28.

Now you have a bit of a problem, since the Son of Man could not possibly save "ashes" (those who are destroyed utterly).

Then there is this verse:

Mat 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again, this is the same Greek word. The lexicon at Blue Letter Bible gives a number of meanings to the Greek word apollymi, I think it fair dinkum to ask if the right understanding has been used in 10:28, seeing how apparently flexible that word is.

This is one of a number of verses which lead me to conclude that in hell the unrighteous are neither eternally tormented nor purified, but destroyed.

Mark complicates things even more:

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose G622 it; but whosoever shall lose G622 his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

If I destroy my life, how shall I save it if it is utterly annihilated and ceases to be (in the sense that you are stating destruction)? Or does the meaning "ruin" fit this better?

You are correct that Edward Fudge was a great proponent of my understanding of the final destiny of the unrighteous. His book, The Fire that Consumes, is still an excellent resource.

Another excellent resource for further study is the Rethinking Hell website. Just about any question or verse or issue related to Conditional Immortality and annihilationism is well addressed there.

2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

That is not what the KJV or the YLT translation says. This sounds like a bit of Special Pleading here. Your translation says that what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is what will also happen to the ungodly. The translations I am looking up merely say that Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of God's punishment.

I discuss the language of this verse, and how other verses using different words teach the same thing, in a post here:

Downburned and Ashified: The Annihilation of the Unrighteous

The Universalist Story has the Wrong Goal

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

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I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

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