The UN?

[romanov]

I've never understood why Christians would support the UN. Being a Libertarian I don't understand why ANYONE would support the UN (United Nations, just to clarify).

First the Christian question. I strongly feel that the end times have yet to happen but may very well be upon us now. And I understand that some people believe that the end times prophesies are just an allegory, have already happened, started at the end of WWI...etc. There are a whole host of theories dealing with the end times. But just for the sake of argument, I want to pose this question. Being that the Anti Christ will bring the world under the rule of one government divided into ten kingdoms, why would any Christian support the UN? I don't support the European Union (which is the first kingdom, I believe). I don't support what Bush is doing with the North American Union (which would be kingdom 2). There is already talk about an Asian Union, a South American Union, and an African Union. It just seems to me that Christians would avoid the UN like the plague.

Second, as a Libertarian, I believe that the sole purpose of Government is to protect the individual. The UN is a Marxist organization. It was founded by Marxists and the UN charter is a Marxist document. Marxism and Christianity are diametrically opposed to each other. You can't be a Marxist believing that the individual doesn't matter, that only the group matters and a Christian who believes in individual responsibility. Your individual sins doom you to death and it is the gift of God through the Son that saves you but only through your individual action of accepting the gift and allowing God to work through your heart. No group can do this for you. You are responsible for your life and your actions.

So as a Christian and a Libertarian, I believe that the goals and aims of the UN are in opposition to Christian beliefs so why do so many Christians support the UN?

Let's knock this around and have some fun.

 

[onajourney87]

First the Christian question. I strongly feel that the end times have yet to happen but may very well be upon us now. And I understand that some people believe that the end times prophesies are just an allegory, have already happened, started at the end of WWI...etc. There are a whole host of theories dealing with the end times. But just for the sake of argument, I want to pose this question. Being that the Anti Christ will bring the world under the rule of one government divided into ten kingdoms, why would any Christian support the UN? I don't support the European Union (which is the first kingdom, I believe). I don't support what Bush is doing with the North American Union (which would be kingdom 2). There is already talk about an Asian Union, a South American Union, and an African Union. It just seems to me that Christians would avoid the UN like the plague.

Are we as Christians under a moral obligation to not take part in anything that may lead to the end times? I see nothing in Scripture saying so. So I think this part of your argument is meaningless unless you wish to build a nice case about the morality of supporting regular, inevitable events.

 

[Proselyte]

For all the good the UN does, I see it as a weak organization. China and Russia logjamming the Iran and North Korea situation based on their personal agenda is just the most recent example of that.

The idea of the UN is noble, but in reality, it's not demonstrating itself to be highly effective right now.

 

[onajourney87]

For all the good the UN does, I see it as a weak organization. China and Russia logjamming the Iran and North Korea situation based on their personal agenda is just the most recent example of that.

Of course, all countries have agendas.

There's only problems when countries have differing agendas.

If the United States really was all about freedom and liberty and justice, then all the countries in Africa would be free by now. But since the United States is about freedom/liberty/justice (or what our government decides those to be) for it's own people, the United States simply has an agenda of protecting itself, not spreading the values it parades around to the world when it's so much as a mild inconvienence.

 

[romanov]

Are we as Christians under a moral obligation to not take part in anything that may lead to the end times? I see nothing in Scripture saying so. So I think this part of your argument is meaningless unless you wish to build a nice case about the morality of supporting regular, inevitable events.

The Anti Christ will fly around in jet planes so should we as Christians not fly around in jet planes? The same can be said of cars and peanutbutter and banana sandwiches so of course it is silly to avoid those things simply because the Anti Christ will probably fly around in jets, use cars and possibly like peanutbutter and banana sandwiches. But the UN will be the seat of his power and I don't see paving the way for him. Let him do his own work which is the point I'm trying to make. Why should we be doing his work?

You may feel that this is getting into a political discussion, but honestly I don't see the divide. I don't see how a Christian can go into politics and separate his Christianity from his politics. That would be a pretty tough nut to chew. We as Christians have a choice. As a matter of fact everyone who is non Christian has a choice. The UN is not about choice and they are openly hostile towards Christianity. So again my question stands. Should people who call themselves Christian support the UN?

 

[romanov]

For all the good the UN does, I see it as a weak organization. China and Russia logjamming the Iran and North Korea situation based on their personal agenda is just the most recent example of that.

The idea of the UN is noble, but in reality, it's not demonstrating itself to be highly effective right now.

What good have they ever done? What good were they to Rwanda? What good were they to Dufar? They spend half their time condemning Israel for the slightest percieved or manufactured "human rights" violation but turn a blind eye to Zimbabwe, Uganda, The Congo, Bosnia, North Korea, Cuba, etc... But what can you expect when countries like Cuba, The Sudan, Iraq and Iran have sat on their "human rights" commision?

When you put a den of thieves in charge, you'll only get policies that make it easy for thieves to operate.

 

[romanov]

Of course, all countries have agendas.

There's only problems when countries have differing agendas.

Nice try but that is my point. The agenda of the UN is power, prestige and privilege. That is all they care about. They want the UN to be the governing body for the world which paves the way for the Anti Christ. That's it in a nutshell.

If the United States really was all about freedom and liberty and justice, then all the countries in Africa would be free by now. But since the United States is about freedom/liberty/justice (or what our government decides those to be) for it's own people, the United States simply has an agenda of protecting itself, not spreading the values it parades around to the world when it's so much as a mild inconvienence.

So Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Afganistan, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, were only minor inconveinences? I'm pretty sure the guys who died there wouldn't consider it a minor inconvienence.

And why should it be the perveiw of the US to spread liberty and justice for all? I seem to remember in college being preached to about the evils of colonialism and how that destroyed Africa. If the US went into Africa to start cleaning up that mess there would be howls from the left about imperialism. (Unless there was a democrat in office. Then it would be ok.) Personally I feel that instead of running around the world getting into all these silly wars, the US should keep it's nose in it's own business and lead by example. The only time our military should ever be used is if we are directly attacked. If we had kept our nose in our own business, alot of our problems would be solved.

The Constitution charges the US government to protect and defend the US. That is it. Now if you want to get into the arguement: does the Constitution apply to, say, terrorists at Guantanamo Bay; no it doesn't. The Constitution is a legal document and as a legal documet only applies to US citizens. Morally the philosophy behind the creation of the Constitution applies to everyone on the planet but if we run around the world trying to dictate those morals on everyone else, then we would end up with a bigger mess than we already have. We got into this mess because of our involvement in WWI. We shouldn't have been involved with that and we shouldn't be involved with the UN and the mess we are in now. Period.

 

[intricatic]

Yeah, I agree - although I feel more that the UN is a total waste of resources and effort in our age.

 

[Proselyte]

What good have they ever done? What good were they to Rwanda? What good were they to Dufar? They spend half their time condemning Israel for the slightest percieved or manufactured "human rights" violation but turn a blind eye to Zimbabwe, Uganda, The Congo, Bosnia, North Korea, Cuba, etc... But what can you expect when countries like Cuba, The Sudan, Iraq and Iran have sat on their "human rights" commision?

When you put a den of thieves in charge, you'll only get policies that make it easy for thieves to operate.

Most political organizations have self interest in mind.

 

[intricatic]

Most political organizations have self interest in mind.

Most=All?

 

[lilymarie]

Most=All?

I most certainly agree!

I also don't think religion and politics mix, as many people are deceived by these so-called "political platforms" that end up being usually a bunch of empty promises. All politicians are involved in their own "business interests".

And the politics of greed, anyone?

That's a lyric from the line "Sowing the Seeds of Love". It was a song written about Margaret Thatcher and Reagan, I believe. Thatcher is the "politican grannie with the high ideals", and then the next line is "Have you no idea how the majority feels? So without love and a promised land, were fools to the rules of a government plan".

So, I've pretty much renounced politics for now, especially after Bush.

I also see Christ being pushed aside in churches so that the churches themselves can set up their political platforms.

Shaking my head regarding all this politicing from the pulpit. It's caused me to leave the church.

I'm not going to church to go to a Republican convention or luncheon with the so-called "moral majority" who seem to have too much blind faith in especially the Republicans.

All politicians have their own business interests. It's quite apparent with Bush and Cheney, as well as other politicians.

Sorry if I offended any Republicans, but you are you and I am me. We all have a different calling from The Lord. One of mine is not to be a Republican, but to be a humble servant of The Lord. I feel politics is getting in the way of my accomplishing this right now.

Edit in: I don't want to be coerced into being a Democrat either. I have just renounced all politics for now, and am happy in my choice.

 

[Proselyte]

Most=All?

without stereotyping...yes LOL.

 

[intricatic]

We live in a political world
Everything is hers or his,
Climb into the frame and shout God's name
But you're never sure what it is.


-Bob Dylan, Political World​

 

[romanov]

I most certainly agree!

I also don't think religion and politics mix, as many people are deceived by these so-called "political platforms" that end up being usually a bunch of empty promises. All politicians are involved in their own "business interests".

Seperating one's religious beliefs from his politics is impossible if s/he has any actual religious convictions. For instance, take the notion of pornography. I don't consider myself a prude and I know that nakedness can be artful but often times the NEA funds filth. It is so debased, you can't even call it pornography. It is filth. So any politician with religious convictions would disallow the NEA to fund an "artist" who wanted to put a crucifix upside down in a jar of bodily fluids and call it art. And no, it's not censorship to not pay someone who produces filth. Are you censoring Hustler if you don't buy their magazine?

And the politics of greed, anyone?

Greed is everywhere, not just the political relm. And it is not the only problem with politics. You also have the problem of power, prestige and privilege and the maniacal desire to control.

That's a lyric from the line "Sowing the Seeds of Love". It was a song written about Margaret Thatcher and Reagan, I believe. Thatcher is the "politican grannie with the high ideals", and then the next line is "Have you no idea how the majority feels? So without love and a promised land, were fools to the rules of a government plan".

I hate that song. I hate that song so very very much. It reminds me of a line from a song done by Janis Joplin. The title of the song is Me and Bobby McGhee. And the line is, "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." This is going to sound really unChristian but it is fitting that she choked to death on her own vomit after that song.

Songs are alot like sound bites. They say alot by ignoring most everything. Much like liberals, now that I think about it.

So, I've pretty much renounced politics for now, especially after Bush.

I just renounce republicans and democrats and pray for a statesman who believes in the individual.

I also see Christ being pushed aside in churches so that the churches themselves can set up their political platforms.

I agree here. If you read some of the books by Norm Clomsky(sp?), this is the tactic that he professed in alot of books and alot of collectivists use his books as a road map to one world government and paving the way for the Anti Christ.

Shaking my head regarding all this politicing from the pulpit. It's caused me to leave the church.

I honestly don't think this has to be a bad thing. Find some of the sermons written by preachers prior to the Revolutionary War and some of the Abolitionist preachers of the mid-1800's and you will see what I mean. What you are shaking your head about is that you don't agree with what ever they are preaching. Think about how many Tories or slave owners shook their heads walking out of Church. 'Course I haven't heard what they were preaching when you heard it so that's really between God and you. If they were right, I hope you come around to it. If they were wrong, good for you.

Example of a right preacher IMO: Rev Jesse Lee Peterson or the Rev Martin Luther King.

I'm not going to church to go to a Republican convention or luncheon with the so-called "moral majority" who seem to have too much blind faith in especially the Republicans.

You know the thing is, I agree and I want to agree. But it is the job of a preacher to teach morals to his congregation and remind them of their duty to do their utmost to live in a moral way. I mean, honestly, help me out here. Maybe you have a fresh perspective on this. But how would you separate what Yaweh teaches you through the Bible from what you believe politically.

Here's an example. Let's say you got elected to office as Senator from your state. And a bill came before the Senate that would force women to have abortions if their incomes and education levels didn't meet a certain criteria. How would you vote? You know, this might be a pretty good thread to start. We could have alot of fun with this one.

All politicians have their own business interests. It's quite apparent with Bush and Cheney, as well as other politicians.

Yeah, it's all politicians, Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Carter, you name it. They've all got their finger in the til. I've often wondered how it would work to make politicians take a vow of poverty before taking office. Wonder how that would work?

Sorry if I offended any Republicans,

Haven't offended me. I'm a libertarian.

but you are you and I am me. We all have a different calling from The Lord. One of mine is not to be a Republican, but to be a humble servant of The Lord. I feel politics is getting in the way of my accomplishing this right now.

Way cool! If you are feeling that politics is getting in the way of your walk with God then you are right to put it in it's place outside of your life. God keeps putting political books in my hand. I really don't know why. Been trying to figure that out.

Edit in: I don't want to be coerced into being a Democrat either. I have just renounced all politics for now, and am happy in my choice.

Read above statement.

 

[paleodoxy]

Romanov,

I LIKE your style.

From one Christian Libertarian to another...

paleodoxy

 

[paleodoxy]

Although, I'm not too big a fan of Martin Luther King.

And no...I'm not a racist.

 

[intricatic]

Meh, ya'all have your way, I've got mine. Politics in general will always remain corrupt and meaningless to me, I guess that some people have more faith in it than others. Heh.

 

[lilymarie]

Seperating one's religious beliefs from his politics is impossible if s/he has any actual religious convictions. For instance, take the notion of pornography. I don't consider myself a prude and I know that nakedness can be artful but often times the NEA funds filth. It is so debased, you can't even call it pornography. It is filth. So any politician with religious convictions would disallow the NEA to fund an "artist" who wanted to put a crucifix upside down in a jar of bodily fluids and call it art. And no, it's not censorship to not pay someone who produces filth. Are you censoring Hustler if you don't buy their magazine?



Greed is everywhere, not just the political relm. And it is not the only problem with politics. You also have the problem of power, prestige and privilege and the maniacal desire to control.



I hate that song. I hate that song so very very much. It reminds me of a line from a song done by Janis Joplin. The title of the song is Me and Bobby McGhee. And the line is, "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." This is going to sound really unChristian but it is fitting that she choked to death on her own vomit after that song.

Songs are alot like sound bites. They say alot by ignoring most everything. Much like liberals, now that I think about it.



I just renounce republicans and democrats and pray for a statesman who believes in the individual.



I agree here. If you read some of the books by Norm Clomsky(sp?), this is the tactic that he professed in alot of books and alot of collectivists use his books as a road map to one world government and paving the way for the Anti Christ.



I honestly don't think this has to be a bad thing. Find some of the sermons written by preachers prior to the Revolutionary War and some of the Abolitionist preachers of the mid-1800's and you will see what I mean. What you are shaking your head about is that you don't agree with what ever they are preaching. Think about how many Tories or slave owners shook their heads walking out of Church. 'Course I haven't heard what they were preaching when you heard it so that's really between God and you. If they were right, I hope you come around to it. If they were wrong, good for you.

Example of a right preacher IMO: Rev Jesse Lee Peterson or the Rev Martin Luther King.



You know the thing is, I agree and I want to agree. But it is the job of a preacher to teach morals to his congregation and remind them of their duty to do their utmost to live in a moral way. I mean, honestly, help me out here. Maybe you have a fresh perspective on this. But how would you separate what Yaweh teaches you through the Bible from what you believe politically.

Here's an example. Let's say you got elected to office as Senator from your state. And a bill came before the Senate that would force women to have abortions if their incomes and education levels didn't meet a certain criteria. How would you vote? You know, this might be a pretty good thread to start. We could have alot of fun with this one.



Yeah, it's all politicians, Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Carter, you name it. They've all got their finger in the til. I've often wondered how it would work to make politicians take a vow of poverty before taking office. Wonder how that would work?



Haven't offended me. I'm a libertarian.



Way cool! If you are feeling that politics is getting in the way of your walk with God then you are right to put it in it's place outside of your life. God keeps putting political books in my hand. I really don't know why. Been trying to figure that out.



Read above statement.

Roflol!

Well, sorry U don't like the song "Sowing the Seeds of Love" lol However, there are other Tears For Fears songs that are masterpieces! I have some great Tears For Fears songs! I'm a'm big of them. lol I love Roland's solo work better.

Anyhow, I just wanted to say, I like your style, too.

Thank you for letting me go from politics. I don't wish to get into political debates. I feel I have enough problems right now just learning about all the "different" Christian doctrines I am hearing on the internet right now.

All of us so similar, yet sometimes we just don't understand each other.

I also have been "ill". I don't wish to get into it, but I feel my health and my family and my God are more important than my learning about "politics".

But, I just wanted to say I thought your post was funny! I loved you honesty.

p.s. I have some really great TFF songs I could share with you instead of "Sowing the Seeds of Love". lol

but also I need to add for honesty your post was funny EXCEPT for the part about Janis Joplin. I didn't think that was funny. I just wanted to make that clear.

 

[romanov]

Although, I'm not too big a fan of Martin Luther King.

And no...I'm not a racist.

I have some issues with MLK, him being a collectivist and all, but he was right about not judging a man by the colour of his skin and what not.

I hate it when people call me a racist when I say stuff like that too.

 

[romanov]

Meh, ya'all have your way, I've got mine. Politics in general will always remain corrupt and meaningless to me, I guess that some people have more faith in it than others. Heh.

I get where you are coming from. Politicians will use their "faith" as a resume enhacer to get elected and then run about doing as they please. Which does not speak well of their honesty in the frist place. Then I wonder how someone who makes 140k a year ends up a multi-milloionaire before the end of their frist term. I wish some actual christians who beleive in the principals of the Constitution would start running for office.

That is why I started this tread. Bush makes all this noise about being a christian then does things that are clearly paving the way for the Anti-christ. Just does not add up.