The Un-evangelized

[S Walch]

Lemme check - it's in one of pauls letters somewhere.....

Edit: O.K - here it is:

Romans 5:12-15 :

12When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there was no law to break, since it had not yet been given,
14 they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come!
15 And what a difference between our sin and God's generous gift of forgiveness. For this one man, Adam, brought death to many through his sin. But this other man, Jesus Christ, brought forgiveness to many through God's bountiful gift.

Quite self explanatory really.

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Romans 5:12-15 :
12When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there was no law to break, since it had not yet been given,
14 they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come!
15 And what a difference between our sin and God's generous gift of forgiveness. For this one man, Adam, brought death to many through his sin. But this other man, Jesus Christ, brought forgiveness to many through God's bountiful gift.

try this translation, your sucks!

NIV.

Romans 5

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

or better yet, this one:

NASB

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

It's not talking about the sin that being passed through the generations, it's talking about the fact that we now have to die as a *result* of that sin. Even if it did back up Original Sin, it is only talking about the time of Adam until Moses, then everything was changed When Jesus died for our sins, and made us clean.

Come on. You need something better than that

[edit]Also it says nothing about eternal damnation for someone who has committed no sin. [/edit]

 

[S Walch]

gah! Sometimes your too smart for your own good chris

I'll find the answer somewhere!

And my bible version doesn't suck! - It' fine thank you

Edit: Aha! Read until the end of Romans 5 oldo:

Romans 5:12-21:

12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there was no law to break, since it had not yet been given,
14 they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come!
15 And what a difference between our sin and God's generous gift of forgiveness. For this one man, Adam, brought death to many through his sin. But this other man, Jesus Christ, brought forgiveness to many through God's bountiful gift.
16 And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but we have the free gift of being accepted by God, even though we are guilty of many sins.
17 The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God's wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many people became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many people will be made right in God's sight.
20 God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness became more abundant.
21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


So, that is saying that until you accept christ as your lord and saviour - then those people will still have adam's original sin.

Only through Christ can our sins be forgiven, as you personally know

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

So, that is saying that until you accept christ as your lord and saviour - then those people will still have adam's original sin.

and you use this as a basis to say that everyone is quilty of sin at birth? I think not.

When adam sinned, as a result we are all now destined to die at some point. It's only this that is passed down the generations imo, not the sin too!
I know there are other verses, but this verse doesn't seem to back up original sin atall, sorry

 

[S Walch]

Erm....erm.......

Why id the Bible so long..... *hunts around for the correct verse*

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life.

this suggests that we don't have to do anything for his salvation..

 

[S Walch]

Today at 06:14 PM OLDoMiNiON said this in Post #26 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677441#post677441)

this suggests that we don't have to do anything for his salvation..

That one verse yes, but when you take account of it in the whole passage- it is not.

Edit: I can't find anything else in pauls letters - which is weird for he repeats himself a few times in different letters - oh well.

Must be somewhere in the NT, but I can't be bothered searching for it right now

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

true, yeh i did take that outta context to test you weren't just agreeing with my every word

SoccerAaron:
There is no "Age of Reason" if thats what your asking. You can read the Bibel from front to back and you won't find a good verse supporting it.

No, maybe not in the bible, but we can see from observing children, that by the time they are 7, they are generally starting to figure out about right and wrong, and realising about the "gray areas" inbetween. Before that they have a certain innocence about them that you could say, to quote from LOTF; "proclaims no evil". Did jesus not say "let the children come to me"? and does he not instruct us to be like them? Think about it...

 

[SoccerAaron]

Psalm 51:5 (ESV)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Genesis 8:21
And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse[1] the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

Romans 5:12-21
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18Therefore, as one trespass[1] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[2] leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[S Walch]

aha! Thank you SoccerAaron!

There you are chris

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Psalm 51:5 (ESV)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Yes - good verse. Yet it's in the old testament, and is part of the old covenant. I dunno whether the rules have changed in the new one, but i should think so! we don't sacrifice animals anymore do we? can someone else have a deeper look into this for me since i have not got much time b4 i go away for the weekend.

Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in the trespasses and sin

lol, how does that prove anything to do with original sin? It says nothing about birth, but death. ..and is also taken *completely* out of context!

"1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient."

It's on about the sins of those who "follow the ways of this world", not of the sin that exists at birth.

Genesis 8:21
And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse[1] the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

again, completely mis-quoted!

1. it's before Jesus came to die for our sins, and therefore we are now in a new covenant, same applies as to the first scripture.
2. Youth:

youth  
n. pl. youths (yths, ythz)

1)
a. The condition or quality of being young.
b. An early period of development or existence: a nation in its youth.

2) The time of life between childhood and maturity.

a. A young person, especially a young male in late adolescence.
b. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) Young people considered as a group.

Would he not have said "from his birth" if he meant that, not "from his youth". Yes, little kids can sometimes be quite evil.. i've been kicked in the unmentionables many a time by little children. But this does not mean to say that they are guilty of sin at birth! Come on. A kid see's someone kicking somone else as a joke, it thinks it's ok and imitates it. They hear someone swearing, and imitate that too - thats how they learn... but can a little baby be considered sinful? i think not, or atleast this verse does not prove so.

 

And we have discussed the Romans scripture above. It is questionable to say the least...

 

[SoccerAaron]

So you say everything in the OT is discreditable?
So you sig means nothing. You must disprove the Psalms verse.

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

So you say everything in the OT is discreditable?

no, not atall! I'm not saying that verse is wrong, and disproves Original Sin, infact it looks the opposite to me too, but i'd like to know if anyone else has looked into it further than me and get their views!
However, i was referring to the fact that sin in the old testament was attoned for in a different way than it is now, since we have the new covenant through Jesus!

So you sig means nothing. You must disprove the Psalms verse.

Lol, is my sig refering to sin? no.


I think the real question is: Does the new covenant through Jesus take effect only when we accept that Jesus is lord? .. and do those who can't make the decision for themselves (i.e. a little baby), still live in sin, even though they are completely ignorant of it!?

 

[S Walch]

Today at 06:36 PM OLDoMiNiON said this in Post #33 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=679570#post679570)

no, not atall! I'm not saying that verse is wrong, and disproves Original Sin, infact it looks the opposite to me too, but i'd like to know if anyone else has looked into it further than me and get their views!
However, i was referring to the fact that sin in the old testament was attoned for in a different way than it is now, since we have the new covenant through Jesus!



Lol, is my sig refering to sin? no.


I think the real question is: Does the new covenant through Jesus take effect only when we accept that Jesus is lord? .. and do those who can't make the decision for themselves (i.e. a little baby), still live in sin, even though they are completely ignorant of it!?

Well jesus did say that he was the way, the truth and the life, and the only way to the father was through him - so I'm guessing he was saying that the old covenant applies to those that don't accept jesus - but when they do, there sins are washed clean and it's a new start in the New covenant brought to earth by jesus.

 

[SoccerAaron]

is my sig refering to sin?

So it applies only to verses pertaining to sin?

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

So it applies only to verses pertaining to sin?

don't be silly. please read what i said about the covenants, and answer my questions if you can.

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Well jesus did say that he was the way, the truth and the life, and the only way to the father was through him - so I'm guessing he was saying that the old covenant applies to those that don't accept jesus - but when they do, there sins are washed clean and it's a new start in the New covenant brought to earth by jesus.

So is a non-christian still under the old covenant? Should i go buy the lambs swalch?

 

[S Walch]

Today at 07:02 PM OLDoMiNiON said this in Post #37 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=679605#post679605)

So is a non-christian still under the old covenant? Should i go buy the lambs swalch?

Well, Jews still sacrifice things today - for they still abide by the old covenant.

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Yes, but just because they abide by it, it doesn't mean to say that it is still in effect!

 

[Job_38]

25th February 2003 at 01:23 AM Br. Max said this in Post #4

4jesus: they are condemned for what? their unbelief in the name of Jesus. One cannot have unbelief in the name of Jesus without ever having heard it can one?

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another