The Ultimate Sacrifice

[Ana the Ist]

First try to answer my question. Why did I add the word "human" to your statement?

Maybe you read Watership Down and believe in talking bunnies...I don't know and really don't care. Again...we both know I was speaking about humans so get on with it. Lets hear all these objective moral laws.

 

[PsychoSarah]

First try to answer my question. Why did I add the word "human" to your statement?

I would guess you assume animals other than humans either don't have morals (proven incorrect by studying the behavior of chimps and other apes), or that their moral stances don't matter.

 

[Resha Caner]

Maybe you read Watership Down and believe in talking bunnies...I don't know and really don't care. Again...we both know I was speaking about humans so get on with it. Lets hear all these objective moral laws.

I'm asking you to define the scope of this discussion. If you won't answer my question, all I can do (based on the above response) is assume you are restricting the discussion to only humans. If so, I answered you in post #98.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'm asking you to define the scope of this discussion. If you won't answer my question, all I can do (based on the above response) is assume you are restricting the discussion to only humans. If so, I answered you in post #98.

I can discuss the observed morality of chimpanzees.

 

[Resha Caner]

I can discuss the observed morality of chimpanzees.

If you would like.

 

[PsychoSarah]

If you would like.

They are very human like in how they behave within their groups, both in considering immoral and moral acts. Chimps have been observed saving the young of other members in their group at the risk of themselves, punishing their children for bullying smaller babies of other parents, and attempting to aid the sick as well as morning the deaths of loved ones (sometimes for years, especially in the case of a child). They have also been observed warring with other chimp groups to gain territory, committing murder and then being punished for that (death or exile), stealing, etc.

Even better, since they can learn human language to an extent, you can actually ask them about it and get a response.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm asking you to define the scope of this discussion. If you won't answer my question, all I can do (based on the above response) is assume you are restricting the discussion to only humans. If so, I answered you in post #98.

Actually, you're just dodging the question. I already told you that you wouldn't be able to give me a "list" of objective morals and if we cannot know them, then it's a pretty useless belief. You're not alone. No one claiming objective morality ever has. It's a rather empty, useless method of examining morality.

This question you seem to be searching for a specific answer for won't have any bearing on your ability to do the above at all. So whether I say bunnies, or god, it won't change the fact that you won't be able to adequately list objective morals...or (worse) provide a broken, defunct, out of date list that even you disagree with.

 

[Resha Caner]

... or god ...

Ah, so you did know why I added that word. Or at least you had a good guess.

Actually, you're just dodging the question.

No, I meant what I said. I asked you to set the scope of your question. Since you (sort of) answered my question, I'll reciprocate: Exodus 20:15.

I'll also offer a definition of "moral" as "a rule for proper conduct". If you disagree, let me know.

I expect we'll also be doing some dancing around the word "objective" as this proceeds.

 

[Resha Caner]

They are very human like in how they behave within their groups, both in considering immoral and moral acts. Chimps have been observed saving the young of other members in their group at the risk of themselves, punishing their children for bullying smaller babies of other parents, and attempting to aid the sick as well as morning the deaths of loved ones (sometimes for years, especially in the case of a child). They have also been observed warring with other chimp groups to gain territory, committing murder and then being punished for that (death or exile), stealing, etc.

Even better, since they can learn human language to an extent, you can actually ask them about it and get a response.

Why do you take an interest in the behaviors of chimps?

 

[Viren]

Being selfless is ultimately good for both parties both helper and the helped so the whole premise is untrue imo.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ah, so you did know why I added that word. Or at least you had a good guess.



No, I meant what I said. I asked you to set the scope of your question. Since you (sort of) answered my question, I'll reciprocate: Exodus 20:15.

I'll also offer a definition of "moral" as "a rule for proper conduct". If you disagree, let me know.

I expect we'll also be doing some dancing around the word "objective" as this proceeds.

I'm sorry...my bibleness is a little rusty. I've got exodus 20-15 as "Thou shall not steal". If you're claiming that's the entire moral code....this will be a short convo. Care to reconsider?

I'm fine with your definition of "moral" if you give me a definition of "proper". I'm also going to want a definition for "objective" before you start dancing or this is all a bit pointless again.

 

[Resha Caner]

I'm sorry...my bibleness is a little rusty. I've got exodus 20-15 as "Thou shall not steal". If you're claiming that's the entire moral code....this will be a short convo. Care to reconsider?

You're right, it's, "You shall not steal." They're all going to come from the Bible, so I'm not planning on typing out the whole Bible for you. This one is an example for us to use.

I'm fine with your definition of "moral" if you give me a definition of "proper". I'm also going to want a definition for "objective" before you start dancing or this is all a bit pointless again.

Proper would mean: appropriate to the purpose.

I was asking you to start the ball rolling on "objective." Even the definition of "moral" was just a suggestion. The reference to objective morality first came from you didn't it? (post #95).

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're right, it's, "You shall not steal." They're all going to come from the Bible, so I'm not planning on typing out the whole Bible for you. This one is an example for us to use.



Proper would mean: appropriate to the purpose.

I was asking you to start the ball rolling on "objective." Even the definition of "moral" was just a suggestion. The reference to objective morality first came from you didn't it? (post #95).

Well you could've just said, "All the moral laws contained in the bible." That would've sped things along. There are problems with that though, do you ascribe to all the moral laws in the bible or do you just pick and choose which ones you like?

Objective morality is a commonly misused term, but the way it's misused is fairly consistent. As I know it, it's the idea there are moral "goods" and "bads" for every possible situation a human can be in and they never change regardless of circumstances or time or individuals or groups...or anything really. Is that what you mean?

 

[Resha Caner]

Objective morality is a commonly misused term, but the way it's misused is fairly consistent. As I know it, it's the idea there are moral "goods" and "bads" for every possible situation a human can be in and they never change regardless of circumstances or time or individuals or groups...or anything really. Is that what you mean?

It was you who brought it up, which is why I wanted you to define it.

Given that is what you mean, I'll have to retract my offer. No, I don't think I could give you anything that would meet that definition.

Well you could've just said, "All the moral laws contained in the bible." That would've sped things along. There are problems with that though, do you ascribe to all the moral laws in the bible or do you just pick and choose which ones you like?

I do my best to follow the Bible.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It was you who brought it up, which is why I wanted you to define it.

Given that is what you mean, I'll have to retract my offer. No, I don't think I could give you anything that would meet that definition.



I do my best to follow the Bible.

Actually, in post 87, you bring up your belief in "moral absolutes". So if you didn't mean the objective morality I've described...what did you mean?

I'm sure you think you do....but you find yourself disagreeing with it at times don't you?

 

[Resha Caner]

Actually, in post 87, you bring up your belief in "moral absolutes". So if you didn't mean the objective morality I've described...what did you mean?

You're right. I did. Exodus 20:15 would be an example. And what does it mean to steal? To take the property of another without the right to do so. It is never acceptable to violate that command, and so is absolute. But it doesn't do what you laid out in your definition, as I think I've acknowledged.

I'm sure you think you do....but you find yourself disagreeing with it at times don't you?

Sure. But as I've explained before, desires don't negate laws. A burglar desires to escape punishment, but if he is caught, the punishment happens despite his desire.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Why do you take an interest in the behaviors of chimps?

A few reasons, namely because apes such as chimps are considered the second most intelligent animals on earth after humans, and how cool is it that you can have a legitimate conversation with a nonhuman animal?

 

[Resha Caner]

A few reasons, namely because apes such as chimps are considered the second most intelligent animals on earth after humans, and how cool is it that you can have a legitimate conversation with a nonhuman animal?

It is cool. It's always fun when I interact with my dog and we seem to have some kind of connection. I do wonder, though, how much of such things is an anthropomorphic projection. With my dog, it often seems the end game is always food.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're right. I did. Exodus 20:15 would be an example. And what does it mean to steal? To take the property of another without the right to do so. It is never acceptable to violate that command, and so is absolute. But it doesn't do what you laid out in your definition, as I think I've acknowledged.



Sure. But as I've explained before, desires don't negate laws. A burglar desires to escape punishment, but if he is caught, the punishment happens despite his desire.

We aren't speaking about laws, we're speaking about morality....I wouldn't want you to confuse the two.

So, to you, even a child stealing food to survive is immoral? Do you also consider exodus 21:20-21 also to be a moral absolute? (You know, since you're using exodus)

 

[Resha Caner]

We aren't speaking about laws, we're speaking about morality....I wouldn't want you to confuse the two.

The point is still the same. I'll rephrase: desire doesn't negate morality. If someone desires to steal, it is still wrong.

So, to you, even a child stealing food to survive is immoral?

Yes. Your scenario is just an attempt to play to sentimentality ... ahh, look at the cute little girl, give her whatever she wants. Why wasn't it the ugly old bag lady who smells and drools on herself and annoys you while you're out trying to shop? But anyway ...

... what if the child steals from a second child who is also starving. Now is it wrong?

The root problem is that the children were starving in the first place. Stealing doesn't somehow fix that. But tell me, are you advocating survival as the ultimate goal? So one can do whatever one pleases as long as it supports survival?

Do you also consider exodus 21:20-21 also to be a moral absolute? (You know, since you're using exodus)

Are we really going to do this? Verse by verse until you think you've trapped me?

1. The slavery spoken of in these verses is not the kind that was practiced in America. It typically involved someone who needed to pay off a financial debt.

2. You can't take one verse in isolation. What about v.1 or v.16? And all the others insisting that people be treated with dignity. Should someone find themselves in a situation where they can't pay their debts, the holder of those debts is under all kinds of obligations to treat them well ... or do you think people aren't obligated to pay back the holders of their debt?