The Ultimate Sacrifice

[PsychoSarah]

It didn't show that at all. As many pointed out, your hypothetical example was too extreme and not at all a Christian understanding of salvation, which is heavily focused on bringing salvation to all, not just the self.

At the center of these types of debates are always questions like: Does altruism actually exist? Is everything a person does selfish? If you think salvation is selfish, what would be your example of something that isn't?

It proves that you value your own eternity over that of others. Wouldn't it benefit god more to allow two people to be saved instead of 1? I came to the conclusion long ago that true selflessness is sacrificing something for other people without the expectation of anything in return ever. However, religious people often believe they will get a better afterlife in return for making their actual lives less pleasant for the sake of others; they always assume a reward.

 

[Resha Caner]

It proves that you value your own eternity over that of others. Wouldn't it benefit god more to allow two people to be saved instead of 1? I came to the conclusion long ago that true selflessness is sacrificing something for other people without the expectation of anything in return ever. However, religious people often believe they will get a better afterlife in return for making their actual lives less pleasant for the sake of others; they always assume a reward.

You didn't really address my point, but continued the strawman. God does not demand the situation you set up, so it shows nothing. People are selfish. I don't think anyone is trying to deny that (in fact Christianity faces that reality head on). Your salvation doesn't suffer because of my selfishness because your salvation is not dependent on me being good.

Neither does the fact that I fall short of a total sacrifice mean I never sacrifice at all.

Again, you're going to have to show how this "true selflessness" is relevent before it will mean anything.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How is your way not narcissistic?

If that's what you call acting upon desire, I suppose it is. Were you going to answer my questions or just ask your own?

 

[Resha Caner]

If that's what you call acting upon desire, I suppose it is.

The definition of the word is readily available.

Were you going to answer my questions or just ask your own?

Interesting. Do you think you've satisfactorily answered all my questions? Anyway, what question is it you think I haven't answered?

 

[PsychoSarah]

You didn't really address my point, but continued the strawman. God does not demand the situation you set up, so it shows nothing. People are selfish. I don't think anyone is trying to deny that (in fact Christianity faces that reality head on). Your salvation doesn't suffer because of my selfishness because your salvation is not dependent on me being good.

Neither does the fact that I fall short of a total sacrifice mean I never sacrifice at all.

Again, you're going to have to show how this "true selflessness" is relevent before it will mean anything.

It is relevant in that you can't be selfless if you expect a reward. God demands both selflessness and belief in an afterlife reward, making it near impossible to be that way, because your own belief prevents you from ever truly giving something up.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The definition of the word is readily available.



Interesting. Do you think you've satisfactorily answered all my questions? Anyway, what question is it you think I haven't answered?

Tsk, tsk, Resha....didn't this all start when I said I was too selfish for the OP? Then you said, "I don't think that's the way it works". Now here you are agreeing with me...calling me a narcissist. That wasn't so hard, was it?? Lol

I've answered all your questions....if the answers weren't satisfactory, that's something you need to address. How could I know which answers haven't been made clear to you? Ask again...I'll gladly elaborate.

The question you didn't answer was regarding who determines right and wrong for you...it's only a page back, go ahead and look again, you'll see where you ducked it entirely.

So pretty, pretty, please...tell me who tells you right from wrong, good from bad, you've made it abundantly clear you can't handle such things on your own...so who decides for you?

 

[Resha Caner]

God demands both selflessness ...

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, so I'm not sure I would agree with you.

... making it near impossible to be that way, because your own belief prevents you from ever truly giving something up.

But this is near the mark. Christianity holds that it is impossible for you to obtain heaven on your own. You need help.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, so I'm not sure I would agree with you.

But this is near the mark. Christianity holds that it is impossible for you to obtain heaven on your own. You need help.

What if you are never given that help or offered it?

 

[Resha Caner]

Tsk, tsk, Resha....didn't this all start when I said I was too selfish for the OP? Then you said, "I don't think that's the way it works". Now here you are agreeing with me...calling me a narcissist. That wasn't so hard, was it?? Lol

You seem rather pleased with yourself, but I'm not sure what you think you've accomplished. What I disagreed with is that your selfishness (your refusal to sacrifice it all for someone else) has you hellbound ... I believe your statement was something along those lines. I still disagree with that, so I don't know how my last post suddenly means I agree with you. I don't get the connection.

Ask again...I'll gladly elaborate.

It often appears to me you try to close the question without really answering. But that's OK. I can infer from what you said, and since it doesn't seem to bother you if I'm wrong, I'm happy to move on as well.

... you've made it abundantly clear you can't handle such things on your own...so who decides for you?

I never said I can't handle it. Nor did I say I never make decisions. I said it is not always clear and my decisions are not always based solely on my view of a situation.

In those cases, it depends on the situation where the help comes from. Sometimes it comes from the community involved in the situation, sometimes from the Word of God.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You seem rather pleased with yourself, but I'm not sure what you think you've accomplished. What I disagreed with is that your selfishness (your refusal to sacrifice it all for someone else) has you hellbound ... I believe your statement was something along those lines. I still disagree with that, so I don't know how my last post suddenly means I agree with you. I don't get the connection.



It often appears to me you try to close the question without really answering. But that's OK. I can infer from what you said, and since it doesn't seem to bother you if I'm wrong, I'm happy to move on as well.



I never said I can't handle it. Nor did I say I never make decisions. I said it is not always clear and my decisions are not always based solely on my view of a situation.

In those cases, it depends on the situation where the help comes from. Sometimes it comes from the community involved in the situation, sometimes from the Word of God.

Well this explains a lot. You had it wrong from the start. It wasn't my selfishness in relation to the OP, but rather my selfishness in general and the behavior that results from it is what would have me hellbound...if there is such a place. Why shouldn't I be pleased with myself? It's a great thing to know oneself, narcissistic or not. I would rather know and accept who I am for what I am than spend a life denying such things or be deluded about them...wouldn't you?

Ah...the community at large and the word of god. I bet you'd like to think that's the way it works...but the truth is a bit simpler, maybe uglier than that isn't it? After all, how many times have you fallen short of that word? How many times have you shirked the communal values? Hundreds? Thousands of times?

Every time what was the reason? The same reasons I gave you at the start...your own. Just as mine are mine own. Oh, it's true that none of us are immune to such pressures that our respective environments exert on us...they have a hand in shaping those reasons and desires, to be sure. In the end though...you've done as you wished as I've done as I've wished. The difference is I don't carry a chain of shame, guilt, or remorse for what I've done with a little cross dangling at the end.

Do you see now how my explanation works for all people at all times, in every situation?

 

[Resha Caner]

What if you are never given that help or offered it?

Matthew 7:7

 

[Resha Caner]

Do you see now how my explanation works for all people at all times, in every situation?

Are all those questions rhetorical, or do you expect me to answer them? In general the answer is that you seem to be projecting your own answers onto me.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Are all those questions rhetorical, or do you expect me to answer them? In general the answer is that you seem to be projecting your own answers onto me.

Just that one. Lol. Well it explains my behavior, yours, everyone else's, good, bad, right, and wrong. If I'm off somewhere, please correct me. At what point was I projecting? Surely you wouldn't say you've never fallen short of your god's word or community values...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

However, religious people often believe they will get a better afterlife in return for making their actual lives less pleasant for the sake of others; they always assume a reward.

God reveals that some will receive rewards above others even in heaven. There are the 'greatest' and the 'least' in heaven (in the Kingdom). We get to heaven, the Kingdom, by the grace of God. Once there we are rewarded for our works while on earth. So there is a hierarchy of positions even in heaven. So yes, we can work, even sacrifice, for a better reward in heaven. Selfish? Probably not. Sacrifice is serving others. Do it long enough and you become........a servant.

 

[Resha Caner]

Just that one. Lol. Well it explains my behavior, yours, everyone else's, good, bad, right, and wrong. If I'm off somewhere, please correct me. At what point was I projecting? Surely you wouldn't say you've never fallen short of your god's word or community values...

No, I wouldn't say that. But you put a cynical twist on it that seems to fixate on guilt and how you have escaped that guilt. I don't see Christianity burdening anyone in that way, so when you ask if your explanation works for all people at all times, my answer is still no.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Would you sacrifice your own salvation to save two people whom you don't know?

No.

True selflessness cannot exist for people. We are driven by cost-benefit analysis.

However, what are the implications?

For the Christian, if they help an old lady across the street, it does not guarantee them salvation. Perhaps it makes them feel better about themselves because they perceive themselves to be doing God's work, thus providing a higher benefit than the time (AKA the cost) required to help the old lady.

For the atheist, the exact same is true. It doesn't guarantee their salvation and the only reason they did it was because the perceived benefits outweighed the perceived costs. In fact, whether salvation exists or not should be irrelevant to either the Christian or atheist in their actions.



That's the teaching of the Bible. Saved by grace/faith not by works. However, I think many Christians still think in terms of works. So they link their salvation to helping the old lady, even though it shouldn't be related.

Rational selfishness / Rational selflessness is not anti-Christian. (Note: I think rational selfishness and rational selflessness are the same thing).

 

[bhsmte]

I don't consider myself the one to always decide right and wrong.



I can't say that is always the case. It is not always clear what is right.

If you are faced with a situation, in which you have a tough decision to make, how do you then decide what is the "right" action and what is the "wrong" action, if you don't consider yourself capable of determining the same?

 

[Resha Caner]

If you are faced with a situation, in which you have a tough decision to make, how do you then decide what is the "right" action and what is the "wrong" action, if you don't consider yourself capable of determining the same?

I can't give a general answer to that question. Each situation is different. But I don't see why it's surprising for someone to realize they don't have all the answers, so I don't think the solution is that surprising either. You ask people for help or you consult the resources you trust - in my case, God's Word.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, I wouldn't say that. But you put a cynical twist on it that seems to fixate on guilt and how you have escaped that guilt. I don't see Christianity burdening anyone in that way, so when you ask if your explanation works for all people at all times, my answer is still no.

Very well then. You say you've fallen short, pick one of the times you did and tell me why. No need to get embarrassingly specific, you can just say, "I wanted to".

 

[daniel777]

There should always be more options than just yes or no. In the case of the last one, I would view it as along the lines of you would have to know why those people you would be saving were hell bound to begin with. After all, since it is never stated, it could be anything from just not being believers to being serial killers.

Sorry, i didn't see your reply at first.

I checked that option because I think i'd be more likely to do it if i knew the person, if they were someone I cared about.

I think with all this you need to consider the fact that a lot of christians believe their "reward" is assured no matter how selflessly they behave. The bible teaches that all a person's good deeds are like "filthy rags". And often, from my experience, the people who grasp this are the ones doing the most to help others. I don't think anticipation of a reward drives these people as much as realizing the present fulfillment of that "reward" in their everyday lives.