The Tulip is broken

Van said:

Matthew 13:20-22 teaches us of folks who were unregenerate yet received the gospel with joy. Therefore some unregenerate seek God and believe in His promises.

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The passage is called the parable of the sower, not the parable of the seeker. The parable says nothing about any one of the bad soil seeking God, only that they had received what they heard. The truth is that they were not seeking God, this being proved true, when they were later on concerned only with the things of the flesh.

Van said:

how would this work if we were unable to try to follow the law?

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Are you a Jew? Were you following the law, and when you failed to keep it, that brought you to Christ? Is that your conversion story?

Or did you respond to some preacher when he said that Jesus loves you and wants you to be in heaven with Him?

bling said:

What do the following scriptures mean to you:
1 John 3: 6</SPAN>No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 1: 7</SPAN>But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
1 John 1: 8</SPAN>If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
1John 2: 1</SPAN>My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
1 John 2: 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

It sure sounds like we are in control of our sinning (it is not God/Jesus fault). In 1 John 2:1 he does say “if” and not “when”, so Christians do not have to go on sinning.
If we do have the power to return to sinning and are being warned not to, then would it not also stand to reason that we have free will and are still in control of our destiny.

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No you don't understand how it all knits together.

As I said, if you want to know how what 1 John 3:9 means, ask me. If you want to continue to think of yourself as a sinner, go ahead. (Really...go ahead.)

One other point, throw out the bible version you are using, and use only the KJV. THe KJV is a translation, whereas most other versions are interpretations. There are some versions which complement the KJV and assist in understanding, but unless you know what to look for, you are better sticking to the KJV.

The verses you have quoted have been butchered in the version you quote from, by bias on the part of the 'translators'.

RTE (Road to Emmaus) said:

No you don't understand how it all knits together.

As I said, if you want to know how what 1 John 3:9 means, ask me. If you want to continue to think of yourself as a sinner, go ahead. (Really...go ahead.)

One other point, throw out the bible version you are using, and use only the KJV. THe KJV is a translation, whereas most other versions are interpretations. There are some versions which complement the KJV and assist in understanding, but unless you know what to look for, you are better sticking to the KJV.

The verses you have quoted have been butchered in the version you quote from, by bias on the part of the 'translators'.

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I use many versions and did learn some Greek, but can not translate directly. The KJV is taken from the Latin translation of the Greek. I would prefer to use translations that come directly from the Greek and are more resent since other manuscripts came to light after the KJV.
I do not think of myself as a “sinner”, but a saved Christian that sometimes sins. These sins are immediately washed away by the blood of Christ keeping me pure. The reason I do not want to sin again is because this is displeasing to God and I really Love Him.
If you want to explain 1 John 3: 9 in light of what all He is talking about please do. You might also want to show where my logic is faulty.

Van said:

Folks, repeatedly Calvinists say receiving the gospel with joy does not equate with seeking God and believing in the promises of God or having faith in God to some degree.
But the gospel of Christ says no one comes to the Father except through Me. So it is axiomatic that receiving the gospel is the result of seeking to come to the Father. Denial of this truth does not nullify this truth.

Next, I pointed out that seeking the righteousness of God through the works of the Law demonstrated that some unregenerates were seeking God. The rebuttal was to ignore the teachings of scripture and point out that Gentiles come to Christ via another route. LOL

The TULIP is broken, it cannot be defended by scripture, contextually considered.

Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated false by Matthew 13:20-22 where some unregenerates were seeking God and did believe in God.

Unconditional Election to salvation is demonstrated false by James 2:5 where God chooses men rich in faith, keeping His promise to those who love Him.

Limited Atonement, as defined by Calvinism, is demonstrated false by 1 John 2:2 where Christ is the propitiation for the whole world.

Irresistible grace is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 where men are entering heaven, but are turned aside by false doctrine.

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Perseverance of the saints is demonstrated to be false by Gal. 6: 9 and all the scriptures that warn the Christians to avoid falling into sin and encourage the Christians to keep on doing good stuff.

Van said:

Hi Bling, the warnings are (1)applicable to tares and (2) to born again believers concerning loss of rewards and benefits of salvation. Galatians 6:9 is a number twoer.

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Don't bet your soul on it.

Between you and me, let's just endure til the end, all right?

Don't walk away.

It is not God's fault that men are lost. He would save everyone of us and has been working to that end from the beginning when the need arose. He has stated the reason for creating us is to bring him pleasure (Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.) and he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. (Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?)
Even though he is not pleased when the wicked die, he does destroy the wicked from among the just at some point, and though the calvinists accuse him of partiality and predetermined malice against them, it is because of his holy and just character that he destroys them and not because he has created them for that singular purpose.
Now God has always saved men throughout history and he has initiated that salvation and provided everything for it to be accomplished. If he had not done that, no one could be saved from their sin.
But the will of God was and is for everyone to be saved from their sin and God's provision for that salvation is the very same for all sinners no matter when they lived. That provision is his own son who he offered as a substitute for the whole world. But he was not offered in the beginning but after 4000 years of human history had past in which men had been dying without knowing his name or understanding any of the circumstances of his life and sacrificial death. Nevertheless, if they are saved it is because Christ made their salvation possible by his sinless life, his willingness to take their place in death, and his resurrection from the dead.
But how could they be saved without even knowing him who would redeem them by his shed blood? It is by the principle of faith by which all men can be saved.
Heb 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
God is pleased when men believe what he says to them and he JUSTIFIES men on that basis. It is God that justifies! Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth. It is the perogative of God, the judge of the whole earth, to declare men righteous if they meet the conditions of the pardon, even though the penalty has not been actually paid. The judge can do this if he himself decides to pay the penalty he has enacted upon the guilty. So, he did pay the penalty as a one time sacrifice for all sinners and those who lived before and likewise those who live after can be justified on the same principle, faith in the word of God.
We see then that God, the Father justifies us and God the son redeems us. All men who believe God, he justifies because Christ has redeemed all men by the shedding of his blood in death. God has done everything but now men must believe him because our faith is imputed to us for righteousness in the same way that Abraham's faith was imputed to him for righteousness.

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Here are the OT saints. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Here are the post cross saints: Ro 3:26 To declare, [I say], AT THIS TIME his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Compare these two verses with these following:

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it (His believing) was counted unto him for righteousness.

Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (GOD) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

So then, it is obvious from this text that Ararham believed something different than what we believe but we both BELIEVED what God said and we both have our faith imputed by God for righteousness and we are guiltless in his sight. The basis for God's action was the same in both cases, it was the redemptive act of Jesus Christ at the cross.

Therefore, it is responsibility of every man to believe God and be saved. He says, "whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. It is by faith that we are saved. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith (by believing God), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

JDS said:

Even though he is not pleased when the wicked die, he does destroy the wicked from among the just at some point, and though the calvinists accuse him of partiality and predetermined malice against them, it is because of his holy and just character that he destroys them and not because he has created them for that singular purpose.

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False. And libel.

Calvinism directly and explicitly says God pronounces judgment on the wicked because they have not fulfilled what He sets out for them to do.

Reprobation is not the cause of unbelief and ungodliness. Reprobation is the result of the freely willed decisions of sinful human beings.

heymikey80 said:

False. And libel.

Calvinism directly and explicitly says God pronounces judgment on the wicked because they have not fulfilled what He sets out for them to do.

Reprobation is not the cause of unbelief and ungodliness. Reprobation is the result of the freely willed decisions of sinful human beings.

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Thank you friend for your response but you are engaging in doublespeak. I am fully aware of what calvinism teaches about free will.

The T.U.L.I.P is a false religious system that is deceiving millions. Their doctrines have no practicle application and almost all of it's adherents excel at the intellectual exercise of debate but do very little of the practical, evangelism. (And why would they?)

For an exercise in futility, try to make T.U.L.I.P work in any kind of practical application in the historical account of the conversion of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11.

Having said that, my issue is with the system and not with individuals who believe it. I would try to convince you to trust in Jesus Christ plus nothing for your salvation and not calvinism. "There is none other name, under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved."

The T.U.L.I.P is a false religious system that is deceiving millions.
No it's not.



Their doctrines have no practicle application
Their doctrines imply that only the Holy Spirit can do anything for God. On the other hand, your Arminian doctrines tell us you can do something for God. When it comes to praticalities, I'll take the Holy Spirit any day of the week.



and almost all of it's adherents excel at the intellectual exercise of debate but do very little of the practical, evangelism.
C H Spurgeon had about 5000 people in his congregation in London, and was one of the greatest evangelists the world has known. So too George Whitfield.

Dr Martin Lloyd Jones was a Calvinist.

So you don't know what you are talking about.

Furthermore, Calvinism is a doctrine for the saved, not for the purposes of evangelism. It is an edificatory device.

JDS said:

Thank you friend for your response but you are engaging in doublespeak. I am fully aware of what calvinism teaches about free will.

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If it were anyone trying to take away a person's real free will -- it's them.

JDS said:

The T.U.L.I.P is a false religious system that is deceiving millions. Their doctrines have no practicle application and almost all of it's adherents excel at the intellectual exercise of debate but do very little of the practical, evangelism. (And why would they?)

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To RTE I'd add: the largest church in the world is Calvinistic.

JDS said:

For an exercise in futility, try to make T.U.L.I.P work in any kind of practical application in the historical account of the conversion of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11.

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God directing Peter to preach "out of bounds" of Judah is quite a jump from the practice of Judaism. Apparently God's ordained the means of conversion to be based on hearing the Gospel. Go and do likewise! And don't limit yourself to people who just think a certain way: preach to Gentiles of the pagans. Look for the people Christ said would be ready for the message of the Gospel, because that's His instruction -- don't go trying to convert people God hasn't prepared. But also don't set artificial boundaries on your mission. The people God has prepared are people who hear, who are generally of the character Jesus has stated, and who are not interested in that you want to intentionally reach some other set of unprepared people.

And so Cornelius' whole extended family was converted. Peter was unsteady. But they were ready.

JDS said:

Having said that, my issue is with the system and not with individuals who believe it. I would try to convince you to trust in Jesus Christ plus nothing for your salvation and not calvinism. "There is none other name, under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved."

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As Calvinism states the nature of "plus nothing" to be much, much more pervasive than Arminianism or semi-Pelagianism (much less Pelagianism, which is really rampant in Christianity today), I would find your argument vacuous. The claim of Calvinism is that when Arminius said, "It's us", very often it was Jesus Christ. When Trent said, "It's us", very often it was Jesus Christ. when Pelagius said, "It's us", very often it was Jesus Christ.

So I would try to convince you to re-examine your argument here. If it's really Jesus plus nothing, then it's not you either. That's generally what Calvinism is saying. So to me your statement is saying, "trust in Jesus Christ plus nothing for your salvation and not denying-yourself-as-being-added." Which really makes nonsense of "Jesus Christ plus nothing".

That said -- just to cap off the whole point -- even Calvinism has you involved and doing things and freely willing what you will in result of what Christ has done. There's a union there, mostly because we need everything from Christ. But when it comes to causing and accomplishing salvation -- it's Him doing it, Starter to Finisher.

Van said:

Hi Bling, the warnings are (1)applicable to tares and (2) to born again believers concerning loss of rewards and benefits of salvation. Galatians 6:9 is a number twoer.

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Where is the logic behind OSAS? If a person early in their life becomes a believer then later on gives up their inheritance and no longer Loves God or desires His forgiveness, why would God force such a person to be with Him in heaven?
It lacks the same logic as predestination.
Gal. 6:9 is not talking about the tares, it is talking about the good people giving up their sowing after the Spirit and returning to sowing after the flesh and thus losing their inheritance of eternal life.
As far as Peter, Paul, James and John warning Christians about losing out on the joy, privilege and honor of serving in the Kingdom, it comes across much stronger then that. Returning to their sinful ways has a high price or accepting forgiveness from returning to our sinful way would not result in much Love “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”. Do you think the value of sin drops after you become a Christian? If sin prior to becoming a Christian can cause you to go to hell, then why would sin after becoming a Christian not have that same value? Do both require the same payment by Christ?

heymikey80 said:

Well, given the falsehoods and libel that you've already delivered, I would be suspicious of what you're fully aware of -- whether it's another lie.

Oh, and by the waaay ... the people who seem to impinge most egregiously on my free will are those who seem to be advocates of libertarian free will. They're the people who come up with these emotionally-charged arguments. They're the people who seem to sway with negative, polemical, or downright abusive attacks, denying what Calvinism actually states.

If it were anyone trying to take away a person's real free will -- it's them.

To RTE I'd add: the largest church in the world is Calvinistic.

God directing Peter to preach "out of bounds" of Judah is quite a jump from the practice of Judaism. Apparently God's ordained the means of conversion to be based on hearing the Gospel. Go and do likewise! And don't limit yourself to people who just think a certain way: preach to Gentiles of the pagans. Look for the people Christ said would be ready for the message of the Gospel, because that's His instruction -- don't go trying to convert people God hasn't prepared. But also don't set artificial boundaries on your mission. The people God has prepared are people who hear, who are generally of the character Jesus has stated, and who are not interested in that you want to intentionally reach some other set of unprepared people.

And so Cornelius' whole extended family was converted. Peter was unsteady. But they were ready.

As Calvinism states the nature of "plus nothing" to be much, much more pervasive than Arminianism or semi-Pelagianism (much less Pelagianism, which is really rampant in Christianity today), I would find your argument vacuous. The claim of Calvinism is that when Arminius said, "It's us", very often it was Jesus Christ. When Trent said, "It's us", very often it was Jesus Christ. when Pelagius said, "It's us", very often it was Jesus Christ.

So I would try to convince you to re-examine your argument here. If it's really Jesus plus nothing, then it's not you either. That's generally what Calvinism is saying. So to me your statement is saying, "trust in Jesus Christ plus nothing for your salvation and not denying-yourself-as-being-added." Which really makes nonsense of "Jesus Christ plus nothing".

That said -- just to cap off the whole point -- even Calvinism has you involved and doing things and freely willing what you will in result of what Christ has done. There's a union there, mostly because we need everything from Christ. But when it comes to causing and accomplishing salvation -- it's Him doing it, Starter to Finisher.

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The biggest issue I have with Calvin the objective in all this. I see man’s objective: To Love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others. The problem is with the Godly type Love being a free will choice of the agent chosen over likely perceived alternatives (the pleasure of sin for a season). This “Love” is huge and comes from God who wants to give it to everyone and is offering it to every mature adult human. God can not give this Love instinctively to humans for that type Love would not be a Godly type Love that a human now has, but a programmed robotic type Love. Because Godly type Love is an undeserving “gift”, humans must humbly accept the gift as it was given (an undeserving gift). If humans refuse to accept the gift as a gift (try to earn it, pay it back or feel they deserve in some way), then the “transaction” is not completed (it is a two way transaction) the Love is not transferred. This can be seen in the Parable of the “un-accepting” Servant Matt. 18: 21-35 where the servant is asking for an extension on the loan.
God is quenching His own desires to help humans all He can to fulfill their objective. This would include allowing Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind and even sin to happen. By sinning humans have the opportunity to seek forgiveness and in accepting God forgiveness/mercy/grace/Love of their huge debt they Love much “…He that is forgiven much Loves much…”.
So what do you see as man’s objective and how he obtains that objective?

salvation happens at death.

heymikey80 said:

Well, given the falsehoods and libel that you've already delivered, I would be suspicious of what you're fully aware of -- whether it's another lie.

.... They're the people who come up with these emotionally-charged arguments. They're the people who seem to sway with negative, polemical, or downright abusive attacks, denying what Calvinism actually states.

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Er, uh, I am not the one full of anger, calling someone a liar. I am merely suggesting that TULIP is a deceptive religion that cannot be defended from scripture, and few of you evem try it.

heymikey80 said:

To RTE I'd add: the largest church in the world is Calvinistic.

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Thanks, My point was that millions are being deceived.

heymikey80 said:

God directing Peter to preach "out of bounds" of Judah is quite a jump from the practice of Judaism. Apparently God's ordained the means of conversion to be based on hearing the Gospel. Go and do likewise! And don't limit yourself to people who just think a certain way: preach to Gentiles of the pagans. Look for the people Christ said would be ready for the message of the Gospel, because that's His instruction -- don't go trying to convert people God hasn't prepared. But also don't set artificial boundaries on your mission. The people God has prepared are people who hear, who are generally of the character Jesus has stated, and who are not interested in that you want to intentionally reach some other set of unprepared people.

And so Cornelius' whole extended family was converted. Peter was unsteady. But they were ready.

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The story of Cornelius refutes the TULIP beginning with the T. He was unsaved at the beginning of chapter 10, according to the scripture, Acts 11:14 and was saved at the end of the chapter by receiving the Holy Ghost. He was seeking God in the beginning of the chapter, something TULIP says a totally depraved corpse-like unsaved man without the Spirit cannot do. Not only did Cornelius seek God and speak to God, God spoke back and instructed Cornelius in what to do to be saved and the unsaved Cornelius obeyed God.

heymikey80 said:

As Calvinism states the nature of "plus nothing" to be much, much more pervasive than Arminianism or semi-Pelagianism (much less Pelagianism, which is really rampant in Christianity today), I would find your argument vacuous. The claim of Calvinism is that when Arminius said, "It's us", very often it was Jesus Christ. When Trent said, "It's us", very often it was Jesus Christ. when Pelagius said, "It's us", very often it was Jesus Christ.

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I urge you to rethink your presuppositions you bring to the scriptures and to believe the words as they are given.

RTE (Road to Emmaus) said:

Their doctrines have no practicle application
Their doctrines imply that only the Holy Spirit can do anything for God. On the other hand, your Arminian doctrines tell us you can do something for God. When it comes to praticalities, I'll take the Holy Spirit any day of the week.

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Lost men can hear the gospel and be saved. They can do that because salvation is the gift of God and it is good news from heaven to every creature under heaven. Receiving the gift God freely offers them is what lost men must do!

RTE (Road to Emmaus) said:

and almost all of it's adherents excel at the intellectual exercise of debate but do very little of the practical, evangelism.
C H Spurgeon had about 5000 people in his congregation in London, and was one of the greatest evangelists the world has known. So too George Whitfield.

Dr Martin Lloyd Jones was a Calvinist.

So you don't know what you are talking about.

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I am going to give you a little known principal from holy writ.

Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

It is my duty to judge what those men taught. It is God's duty to judge why they taught it. If God chooses to reward those men in spite of their teaching of error, that is fine with me but it is obvious that their false teaching has had a great influence on your own error.

RTE (Road to Emmaus) said:

Furthermore, Calvinism is a doctrine for the saved, not for the purposes of evangelism. It is an edificatory device.

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[/QUOTE]

Right! If a calvinist chooses to evangelize he certainly will not tell them that there is about a 96% chance that God has created them for the day of destruction and the high probability is that they are not elect. No, the fact is you must use the words of the so called arminian and the scripture. "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".
The honest calvinist just stays at home and does nothing rather than deal with such confliction!