The Tulip is broken

RTE (Road to Emmaus) · Aug 19, 2008

Bling,

The Bible does not say, “Your under mind control after becoming a Christian”. It does not say our minds are "kept" under control, It talks about being protection.
The thing we are protected from, is wrong thoughts. So your idea makes no sense.

"Mind control" is the wrong description. The correct description is "the Christian has the mind of Christ". If you want to think of that as mind control, go ahead. I think of it as power.

RTE (Road to Emmaus) · Aug 19, 2008

DARCERi,

IOW, our faith originates from God.
Yes. In fact our faith is the mind of Christ dwelling in us. That is why He had to come inside us.

RTE (Road to Emmaus) · Aug 19, 2008

chesterton,

Your post #111 quotes me, and then pretends to respond to the quote.

But it doesn't. It is no use wasting space. Either respond to the logic in the quote, or admit you cannot. Don't try to distract me with other ditties.

Van · Aug 19, 2008

Van,

what part of us makes us believe in Christ as Lord and Savior. Is it our fleshy soul or is it our spirit? Since flesh seeks after flesh, it must be our spirit, right? And if it is our spirit, then I suggest that it must have been witnessed to by God's Spirit, right? If no, then how could we believe in godly things, wouldn't it be considered all foolishness. IOW, our faith originates from God.

(1) What part of us makes us believe? Folks do you see how compulsion is embedded into Calvinist thinking? Why not ask what part of us allows us to believe? Because the anwer is our God given ability to autonomously believe or not believe, to trust or rely upon this or that!

(2) What allows us to believe in Christ? Four things (a) God allows us to come to Christ, He does not preclude us by hardening our hearts. (b) We have not so hardened our own heart by the practice of sin that we are unable to even understand the gospel. (c) We believe in God and are "of God" which is to say under the influence of God. And (d) we hear or are exposed to the gospel of Christ.

(3) Does our God given ability to understand some spiritual things in our natural fallen state reside in our human spirit or in our flesh? In our human spirit. Romans 2 says we can understand the invisible attributes of God from what He has made, so the spirit can learn from our environment, or put another way, from what God puts before us, which includes His revelation.

(4) Does our faith originate from God? Yes, God is the first cause of everything. God gave us the ability to hear, understand, accept and trust fully in God. God provided His revelation, including the gospel of Christ which is the power of God to salvation.
Does this mean God instills our faith via irresistible grace, and therefore compels us to believe? Nope

Van · Aug 19, 2008

Thanks Chestertonrules, I would love to take credit for it, but alas, it is "borrowed" from one of the posts our Arminian friends have posted. Sorry I can no longer remember the name of the Christian brother. My bad.

bling · Aug 19, 2008

RTE (Road to Emmaus) said:
Bling,

The Bible does not say, Your under mind control after becoming a Christian. It does not say our minds are "kept" under control, It talks about being protection.
The thing we are protected from, is wrong thoughts. So your idea makes no sense.

"Mind control" is the wrong description. The correct description is "the Christian has the mind of Christ". If you want to think of that as mind control, go ahead. I think of it as power.

Help me out with thiso you feel you no longer can control your thoughts and mind? Do you feel incapable of sinning ever again?

armothe · Aug 19, 2008

Van said:
(4) Does our faith originate from God? Yes, God is the first cause of everything. God gave us the ability to hear, understand, accept and trust fully in God. God provided His revelation, including the gospel of Christ which is the power of God to salvation. Does this mean God instills our faith via irresistible grace, and therefore compels us to believe? Nope

Not that anything needs to be added to this but might I observe that the power of the gospel and the spirit is so in line with truth that most of us are naturally drawn to it because we seek what is right and truthful?

-A

chestertonrules · Aug 19, 2008

RTE (Road to Emmaus) said:
chesterton,

Your post #111 quotes me, and then pretends to respond to the quote.

But it doesn't. It is no use wasting space. Either respond to the logic in the quote, or admit you cannot. Don't try to distract me with other ditties.

I'll repeat my response so you can prove me wrong. My guess is that if you could have, you would have. This is not a distraction, this is the word of God and it conflicts with your dogma:

Jesus has been lifted up from the earth, so he is drawing all people to himself right now. These are the words of Jesus, not me!

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

The Holy Spirit convicts all men:

John 16
7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

All have been made alive. It is now up to us to accept or refuse the grace of Jesus:

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

bling · Aug 19, 2008

I have a problem defining what scripture means by faith comes from God. The choices I see are:
1. God from the beginning of time instilled in a few individuals not yet born a faith that would eventually save them.
2. God is faithful and has faith in us prior to our having faith, so He is the source of that faith and the object of our faith.
3. There are different kinds of faith Gods faith has to do with trusting humans with free will so they can obtain Godly type Love, there is a saving faith that humans can develop that enables them to trust Gods Love to forgive them, and then there is a faith that Christians have that is like a Christians ability and thus varies with experience and use. This last type faith should grow and is in proportion to the individuals Godly type Love. This last faith is a gift from God who wants to free give to all, but we have to accept this faith through ceasing the opportunities around us.

Everything seems driven by mans objective: Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others. For us to truly accept and obtain: Godly type Love we have to of our own free will accept the Love and make it our own, for if it is forced on us then it is not our Love, and would be similar to creating a robot that loves you or a puppet that Loves you. Those types of Love are not Godly type Love.

chestertonrules · Aug 19, 2008

bling said:
I have a problem defining what scripture means by faith comes from God. The choices I see are:
1. God from the beginning of time instilled in a few individuals not yet born a faith that would eventually save them.
2. God is faithful and has faith in us prior to our having faith, so He is the source of that faith and the object of our faith.
3. There are different kinds of faith Gods faith has to do with trusting humans with free will so they can obtain Godly type Love, there is a saving faith that humans can develop that enables them to trust Gods Love to forgive them, and then there is a faith that Christians have that is like a Christians ability and thus varies with experience and use. This last type faith should grow and is in proportion to the individuals Godly type Love. This last faith is a gift from God who wants to free give to all, but we have to accept this faith through ceasing the opportunities around us.

Everything seems driven by mans objective: Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others. For us to truly accept and obtain: Godly type Love we have to of our own free will accept the Love and make it our own, for if it is forced on us then it is not our Love, and would be similar to creating a robot that loves you or a puppet that Loves you. Those types of Love are not Godly type Love.

Here's something to consider.

I don't believe faith is an on/off characteristic.

I believe God will grant us faith if we seek it. The fact that faith comes from God does not release us from our obligation to seek and cultivate faith.

beloved57 · Aug 19, 2008

I believe God will grant us faith if we seek it. The fact that faith comes from God does not release us from our obligation to seek and cultivate faith.

Faith comes from being born again..Its a part of the gift of salvation to Gods elect..

RTE (Road to Emmaus) · Aug 20, 2008

bling,

Help me out with this you you feel you no longer can control your thoughts and mind? Do you feel incapable of sinning ever again?
He that is born of God cannot sin. (1 John 3:9).

And spare me the puerile "that verse is a reference to practicing sin", for it is not a reference to that at all.

If you want to know what 1 John 3:9 means, ask me. If you want to instead stick your fingers in your ears and think of yourself as a sinner, go right ahead: I won't be affected.

JacobHall86 · Aug 20, 2008

chestertonrules said:
I believe God will grant us faith if we seek it. The fact that faith comes from God does not release us from our obligation to seek and cultivate faith.

I would be somewhat inclined to agree if the Bible did not say that noone seeks God. So thats a fundamental problem with your statement.

Van · Aug 20, 2008

Does no one seeks God mean no one seeks God ever in an unregenerate state, or no one seeks God at all times in an unregenerate state? If you look at the argument Paul is making in Romans 3, that we all are under sin, he is applying a different message than the one intended in the original text. If we did that, it would be poor exegesis, but because Paul is inspired, we must accept both messages. In the first, the no one refers to the foolish wicked who say there is no God, so it does not refer to all men but only to all of a group of men. Now in Romans 3, Paul quotes that text, to make a different point, not referring to a group of men, but to all men, and not saying all the time, but saying at some time. "We all sin, and therefore no one seeks God when they are sinning," is what Paul is demonstrating from scripture.

JacobHall86 · Aug 20, 2008

Either way, it proves that noone seeks God before they have converted. Before conversion faith and grace happen. But if faith happens before conversion from sin, and we are not seeking God, how do we get faith?

chestertonrules · Aug 20, 2008

All men are drawn to Christ. We now must refuse his grace or accept it:

Jesus has been lifted up from the earth, so he is drawing all people to himself right now. These are the words of Jesus, not me!

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

The Holy Spirit convicts all men:

John 16
7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

All have been made alive.
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

bling · Aug 20, 2008

RTE (Road to Emmaus) said:
bling,

Help me out with this you you feel you no longer can control your thoughts and mind? Do you feel incapable of sinning ever again?
He that is born of God cannot sin. (1 John 3:9).

And spare me the puerile "that verse is a reference to practicing sin", for it is not a reference to that at all.

If you want to know what 1 John 3:9 means, ask me. If you want to instead stick your fingers in your ears and think of yourself as a sinner, go right ahead: I won't be affected.

What do the following scriptures mean to you:
1 John 3: 6</SPAN>No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 1: 7</SPAN>But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
1 John 1: 8</SPAN>If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
1John 2: 1</SPAN>My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defenseJesus Christ, the Righteous One.
1 John 2: 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

It sure sounds like we are in control of our sinning (it is not God/Jesus fault). In 1 John 2:1 he does say if and not when, so Christians do not have to go on sinning.
If we do have the power to return to sinning and are being warned not to, then would it not also stand to reason that we have free will and are still in control of our destiny.

JacobHall86 · Aug 20, 2008

chestertonrules said:
All men are drawn to Christ. We now must refuse his grace or accept it:

Jesus has been lifted up from the earth, so he is drawing all people to himself right now. These are the words of Jesus, not me!

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

The Holy Spirit convicts all men:

John 16
7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

All have been made alive.
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

None of those say that Jesus leaves it up to us to accept, only that he draws us to him.

chestertonrules · Aug 20, 2008

JacobHall86 said:
None of those say that Jesus leaves it up to us to accept, only that he draws us to him.

I think accepting or refusing is up to us:

John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

JacobHall86 · Aug 20, 2008

How are we able to believe if we are dead in our sins? How does a dead man make a choice?

The Tulip is broken

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