The Tulip is broken

Van · Aug 17, 2008

If we are consistent is our understanding, God's word says God does not choose many who are wise, mighty or noble which refers to being well educated, holding a powerful position, or well born into a rich or powerful family. And God did this for a purpose, to make clear that the world's value system which values wealth, power and noble birth (he's a Kennedy, I will cozy up to him) is nothing so that no man may boast based on these factors before God. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. So if not many were wealthy, that means God chose the poor (many but not all of the poor in the eyes of the world) for a purpose. Rather than choose the rich in the eyes of the world, God chose the rich in the eyes of God, those rich in faith, keeping his promise to those who love Him. James 2:5

BTW, the KJV does not insert "to be" into the text. Works for me.

Jipsah · Aug 17, 2008

Van said:
The TULIP is broken

Well, if saying it would make it so, then you'd be halfway there. But as it is, the TULIP remains undented by anything you've said. The fact that you don't believe it doesn't mean anything other than that you don't want to believe it. Hardly compelling stuff.

Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated false by Matthew 13:20-22.

Baloney. You've demonstrated that you don't even understand what Total Depravity is, so you can't really be expected to know whether any Scripture either supported or disproved it. You're simply babbling.

Unconditional Election to salvation is demonstrated false by James 2:5

<Laugh> Nope, wrong again.

Limited Atonement is demonstrated false by 1 John 2:2

Universalist now, are you?

What has been offered in rebuttal?

Rebuttal of what? You haven't offered anything of substance to rebut.

JacobHall86 · Aug 17, 2008

Either you agree with all five points or none. They are too intertwined together for it to be any other way.

chestertonrules · Aug 17, 2008

JacobHall86 said:
Either you agree with all five points or none. They are too intertwined together for it to be any other way.

None.

Man is capable of seeking God thanks to the blood of Jesus.

Man must cooperate with this gift of grace.

Jesus died for all men. His grace is sufficient for all. God wants all men to be saved.

Man can resist this gift of grace and walk away from God.

Man can accept this gift, then turn from God. We must persevere by act of will in seeking God's continued help and grace.

JacobHall86 · Aug 18, 2008

Pelagian was condemned a Heretic, you should look up the reasons for it.

BTW, its hard to reconcile what you have espoused with Scripture without proof texting it.

chestertonrules · Aug 18, 2008

JacobHall86 said:
Pelagian was condemned a Heretic, you should look up the reasons for it.

BTW, its hard to reconcile what you have espoused with Scripture without proof texting it.

The bible is clear on these issues, which explains why Calvinism is such a small and shrinking minority among Christians.

Calvinism is verbal gymnastics.

JacobHall86 · Aug 18, 2008

chestertonrules said:
The bible is clear on these issues, which explains why Calvinism is such a small and shrinking minority among Christians.

Calvinism is verbal gymnastics.

Actually George Barna, its one of the fastest growing beliefs of young protestants. Its the old guard who does not believe in it. And its beliefs that affirm ideas that you can lose your salvation and that man has something to do with it that play verbal gymnastics. Ephesians 2:8-9

chestertonrules · Aug 18, 2008

JacobHall86 said:
Actually George Barna, its one of the fastest growing beliefs of young protestants. Its the old guard who does not believe in it. And its beliefs that affirm ideas that you can lose your salvation and that man has something to do with it that play verbal gymnastics. Ephesians 2:8-9

Let's see what we can learn:

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

Is this ambiguous?

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

What IF we aren't steadfast to the end?

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

Who endures, God or man?

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

Van · Aug 18, 2008

Hi Jacobhall86,

Either you agree with all five points or none. They are too intertwined together for it to be any other way.

I have seen this assertion several times before. But I think it is incorrect. The TULIP refers to 4 points that occur prior to salvation, and one point that describes our post salvation condition. Therefore, the first 4 points are intertwined and if one is false, they all are false.

RTE (Road to Emmaus) · Aug 18, 2008

Chesterton

Man is capable of seeking God thanks to the blood of Jesus.
Another semantic game of the Arminian.

Your "capable" is ambiguous, there being no way to verify its existence. For in order to prove it exists, you would have to prove that one who doesn't see God at present, is capable of seeing God at present.

So you would have to instantiate the cart before the horse, and this you cannot do any more than prove that a political party which did not win office, would have been a better government than the party that actually won office.

So your school of thought occupies the prestigious place of being the only school of thought in the world that doesn't think.

JacobHall86 · Aug 18, 2008

Van said:
Hi Jacobhall86,
I have seen this assertion several times before. But I think it is incorrect. The TULIP refers to 4 points that occur prior to salvation, and one point that describes our post salvation condition. Therefore, the first 4 points are intertwined and if one is false, they all are false.

The Timeline of events is not what makes them interwined, but what they mean. If He is not Lord and in control over all, he cant assure us our Salvation is secure. If we had any part in it, it can fail.

Simply put, God wouldn't be God if He didn't know who was going to heaven.

chestertonrules · Aug 18, 2008

RTE (Road to Emmaus) said:
Chesterton

Man is capable of seeking God thanks to the blood of Jesus.
Another semantic game of the Arminian.

Your "capable" is ambiguous, there being no way to verify its existence. For in order to prove it exists, you would have to prove that one who doesn't see God at present, is capable of seeing God at present.

So you would have to instantiate the cart before the horse, and this you cannot do any more than prove that a political party which did not win office, would have been a better government than the party that actually won office.

So your school of thought occupies the prestigious place of being the only school of thought in the world that doesn't think.

The scriptures are clear, but you don't want to accept them:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

Jesus has been lifted up from the earth, so he is drawing all people to himself right now. These are the words of Jesus, not me!

The Holy Spirit convicts all men:

John 16
7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

All have been made alive. It is now up to us to accept or refuse the grace of Jesus:

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Van · Aug 18, 2008

Hi Jacobhall86, lets discuss the "if we had any part in salvation" it can fail. This is logical if we cause our salvation. But if God simply credits our faith as righteousness, and He by His sovereign choice saves us, then we can be secure. His choice was to offer us a covenant, whoever believes in Him shall not perish. So if God credits our faith as righteousness, that means God has accepted our faith as satisfying the covenant (we are one of the whoever believes in Him according to His determination) and then He saves us.

Bottom line, as long as it is God who saves us, even if in a manner different than taught by TULI, the "P" remains valid, or so it seems to me.

bling · Aug 18, 2008

Van said:
Hi Bling, so folks can walk away from the Law and not be held accountable for their sins of transgression. I think you may want to rethink your argument. God is not mocked.

I never said people that walk away from the Law would not be held accountable by: to God, the Law or what they would know intuitively to be true/right. Walking away from God/law is a sin and means walking away from His Salvation. You seem to be telling me: it is not possible to walk away from your inheritance.

Van said:
Next, if our hearts and minds are kept, just who is walking way. Our minds are being kept. Does the text say our minds are protected from outside intruders? Nope. The idea is that if our hearts and minds are kept, then we would not be able to try to walk away because in that case the mind would have to be free to wander, the old jail cell with the door open argument. Not how scripture reads.

The Bible does not say, Your under mind control after becoming a Christian. It does not say our minds are "kept" under control, It talks about being protection John 17: 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 2 Thes. 3: 3 But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one. 1 Cor. 13: 7 (Love) bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

It reads that; we are protected by God and not mind controlled by God.

Van said:
Bottom line, the idea is God keeps us for our inheritance, not ineffectively keeps us so we can lose our inheritance.

God does His part perfectly, but we have free will to do what is pleasing to God (not like puppets or robots) but by our choice. We also, by our choice can give up and do what is displeasing to God.

Van: Do you feel you no longer can control your thoughts and mind? Do you feel incapable of sinning ever again?

JacobHall86 · Aug 18, 2008

Van said:
Hi Jacobhall86, lets discuss the "if we had any part in salvation" it can fail. This is logical if we cause our salvation. But if God simply credits our faith as righteousness, and He by His sovereign choice saves us, then we can be secure. His choice was to offer us a covenant, whoever believes in Him shall not perish. So if God credits our faith as righteousness, that means God has accepted our faith as satisfying the covenant (we are one of the whoever believes in Him according to His determination) and then He saves us.

Bottom line, as long as it is God who saves us, even if in a manner different than taught by TULI, the "P" remains valid, or so it seems to me.

The only issue is that your view of Salvation places an emphasis on man, because you assume that faith is our doing. Faith is given to us by God, and so is Grace. Since both are given by God and neither earned and Faith is required for Salvation, it seems as though God is totally responsible for Salvation. Making TULI true, and re-affirming the P.

chestertonrules · Aug 18, 2008

JacobHall86 said:
The only issue is that your view of Salvation places an emphasis on man, because you assume that faith is our doing. Faith is given to us by God, and so is Grace. Since both are given by God and neither earned and Faith is required for Salvation, it seems as though God is totally responsible for Salvation. Making TULI true, and re-affirming the P.

Changing subjects here.

I agree with most of the Libertarian platform, but I feel it is a waste of time.

My opinion is that we should try to influence the republican party to get back to constitutional government.

What's your take?

Van · Aug 18, 2008

I take it, Jacobhall86, that post 114 says you agree with my reason for separating P from the TULI, but of course to do not agree that the TULI is invalid. Lets leave it there. God is totally responsible for salvation. He saves us, we do not save ourselves by believing in Jesus. But when God credits our faith as righteousness, then He saves us. If He had given us our faith, it would be righteous already and not need to be credited as righteousness.

chestertonrules · Aug 19, 2008

Van said:
I take it, Jacobhall86, that post 114 says you agree with my reason for separating P from the TULI, but of course to do not agree that the TULI is invalid. Lets leave it there. God is totally responsible for salvation. He saves us, we do not save ourselves by believing in Jesus. But when God credits our faith as righteousness, then He saves us. If He had given us our faith, it would be righteous already and not need to be credited as righteousness.

Van,

You have made many good points, but this is definitely one of your best!

DArceri · Aug 19, 2008

chestertonrules said:
The scriptures are clear, but you don't want to accept them:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

Jesus has been lifted up from the earth, so he is drawing all people to himself right now. These are the words of Jesus, not me!

The Holy Spirit convicts all men:

John 16
7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

LOL....Well, all the scripture you just cherry picked from without context says that ALL people will be with Christ, EVEN UBELEIVERS THAT BLASPHEMY CHRIST. Are you a closet universalist Chester?

.

DArceri · Aug 19, 2008

Van said:
But when God credits our faith as righteousness, then He saves us. If He had given us our faith, it would be righteous already and not need to be credited as righteousness.

Van, what part of us makes us believe in Christ as Lord and Savior. Is it our fleshy soul or is it our spirit? Since flesh seeks after flesh, it must be our spirit, right? And if it is our spirit, then I suggest that it must have been witnessed to by God's Spirit, right? If no, then how could we believe in godly things, wouldn't it be considered all foolishness. IOW, our faith originates from God.

The Tulip is broken

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