The Tulip is broken

AndOne · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
This argument that faith is some sort of ethereal or other worldly concept is mind blowing and is possibly the silliest argument I have ever heard, quite frankly. To think and teach that someone cannot believe the gospel of Jesus Christ when the whole church is commissioned to tell every sinner on the earth with the attendent promise that God will save them from hell if they believe it must surely put these people in a group that should be pitied by those who have a higher capacity to think and reason, at the VERY least.

Here is an example of how faith works:

A man is working in an enclosed building without windows. He is ready to break for lunch and so he asks someone who has just come in from the outside what the weather is like. He is told it is raining hard. So he picks up his umbrella and goes outside. He has believed and his umbrella proves it.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is believed the same way. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and he who believes it is saved from death and hell. How can they hear without a preacher?

And how can anyone deal with a grown man who has not mastered this concept of faith?

Faith is much deeper than that. The real question is why and how you have it in the first place. I agree that faith works pretty much the way you described it - but that really isn't the issue. The issue is where that faith comes from.

All we are saying is that it originates with God and not from within ourselves. Sure we have all the systematic theology and canons and stuff - but when you get right down to the nitty gritty of it all - all any Calvinist is saying is that faith comes from God not from within man. It's just that simple.

JDS · Nov 2, 2008

Behe's Boy said:
I don't get it....

I will spell it out more clearly.

Your comments on this forum so far have convinced me that you have no faith in the word of God. Here is my logic! Only a fallen man would have no faith in the word of God!

Do not take this personally. I am sure you have not yet convinced everyone here.

...and only a fallen man, such as myself, would need faith in the word of God!

nobdysfool · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
This argument that faith is some sort of ethereal or other worldly concept is mind blowing and is possibly the silliest argument I have ever heard, quite frankly. To think and teach that someone cannot believe the gospel of Jesus Christ when the whole church is commissioned to tell every sinner on the earth with the attendent promise that God will save them from hell if they believe it must surely put these people in a group that should be pitied by those who have a higher capacity to think and reason, at the VERY least.

And once again, you are dancing, and not answering. You're pontificating, and trying to fog the issue, and personally attack me. Knock it off. Answer what I wrote, or admit that you cannot.

JDS said:
Here is an example of how faith works:

A man is working in an enclosed building without windows. He is ready to break for lunch and so he asks someone who has just come in from the outside what the weather is like. He is told it is raining hard. So he picks up his umbrella and goes outside. He has believed and his umbrella proves it.

Totally irrelevant to faith in the Gospel. The Gospel is spiritual, being called the Wisdom of God, and the Power of God. The natural man cannot understand it, and finds it foolish. Tell us how a man will put his full trust in something that is, to him, foolishness? Men don't trust in foolishness, they trust in that which they understand. So, stop your foolishness and answer the questions.

JDS said:
The gospel of Jesus Christ is believed the same way. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and he who believes it is saved from death and hell. How can they hear without a preacher?

Does the preacher make the Gospel effective? Or is it the words themselves? Do you believe in magic incantations? If you believe that the words themselves, or the saying of them, makes them effective, then you do believe in magic incantations. Don't insult our intelligence in such a manner.

It is clear that you apparently don't see man as fallen, in spite of scripture to the contrary. Thus, you show evidence of the heresy of Pelagius, who did not believe that God's Grace was necessary for a man to believe. You have avoided these questions long enough. Answer them, or admit that you cannot..

JDS said:
And how can anyone deal with a grown man who has not mastered this concept of faith?

You know, I was wondering the same exact thing about you.....

nobdysfool · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
I will spell it out more clearly.

Your comments on this forum so far have convinced me that you have no faith in the word of God. Here is my logic! Only a fallen man would have no faith in the word of God!

Do not take this personally. I am sure you have not yet convinced everyone here.

Why shouldn't it be taken personally? You made it personal. You just told the world that you don't believe he is saved, because he's a Calvinist, and moreso, because he doesn't believe as you do. You're engaging in ad hominem attacks, because you cannot answer the questions without proving yourself to be espousing falsehoods.

JDS · Nov 2, 2008

Behe's Boy said:
Faith is much deeper than that. The real question is why and how you have it in the first place. I agree that faith works pretty much the way you described it - but that really isn't the issue. The issue is where that faith comes from.

All we are saying is that it originates with God and not from within ourselves. Sure we have all the systematic theology and canons and stuff - but when you get right down to the nitty gritty of it all - all any Calvinist is saying is that faith comes from God not from within man. It's just that simple.

That is the simplist of issues because God answers it in the simplist terms and directly to the point!

Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Since the gospel is what saves man and nothing else can, the unsaved must hear. There must be a preacher and the preacher must be sent to where the lost man is to tell him the gospel. This has been the subject of Paul's discourse here. There is nothing mysterious about this. The proof that the man believes is his calling upon the name of the Lord. He cannot have faith in Jesus Christ if he does not hear about him.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

JDS · Nov 2, 2008

nobdysfool said:
Why shouldn't it be taken personally? You made it personal. You just told the world that you don't believe he is saved, because he's a Calvinist, and moreso, because he doesn't believe as you do. You're engaging in ad hominem attacks, because you cannot answer the questions without proving yourself to be espousing falsehoods.

It is not about what I believe, friend, it is about plain words that are said in scripture. If he does not believe them, he says so with his comments. I have not addressed the issue whether he is saved, How can I know that? In my own wisdom, I would probably have judged Lot to be unsaved after reading his story in the OT but I am told he was a saved man in the NT. I am not about to fall for judging a mans salvation.

I can judge against the scriptures what you say. That is as far as I can or will go.

An example. The plain words of Scripture says Christ died for every man. (He 2:9) You would say he did not!

Another:

God so love the world Jn 3:16 You would say he did not love the world, but only a few in the world, called the elect!

And on and on!

JDS · Nov 2, 2008

nobdysfool said:
And once again, you are dancing, and not answering. You're pontificating, and trying to fog the issue, and personally attack me. Knock it off. Answer what I wrote, or admit that you cannot.

Totally irrelevant to faith in the Gospel. The Gospel is spiritual, being called the Wisdom of God, and the Power of God. The natural man cannot understand it, and finds it foolish. Tell us how a man will put his full trust in something that is, to him, foolishness? Men don't trust in foolishness, they trust in that which they understand. So, stop your foolishness and answer the questions.

Does the preacher make the Gospel effective? Or is it the words themselves? Do you believe in magic incantations? If you believe that the words themselves, or the saying of them, makes them effective, then you do believe in magic incantations. Don't insult our intelligence in such a manner.

It is clear that you apparently don't see man as fallen, in spite of scripture to the contrary. Thus, you show evidence of the heresy of Pelagius, who did not believe that God's Grace was necessary for a man to believe. You have avoided these questions long enough. Answer them, or admit that you cannot..

You know, I was wondering the same exact thing about you.....

Thank you! You have made my point far better than I could!

MamaZ · Nov 2, 2008

An example. The plain words of Scripture says Christ died for every man. (He 2:9) You would say he did not!

But every man will not be chosen.. What a humbling thought to know that it is God who does the choosing and not man.. Taking away any pride of man patting themselves on the back. I know for Me I wonder why God chose me to recieve His blessings and His Gift of Faith.. I am so grateful and love Him for this.. For in my fallen state all I could ever do was sin.. Until God plucked me from the muddy waters and washed me and gave me a new life in Him.

AndOne · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
I will spell it out more clearly.

Your comments on this forum so far have convinced me that you have no faith in the word of God. Here is my logic! Only a fallen man would have no faith in the word of God!

Do not take this personally. I am sure you have not yet convinced everyone here.

...and only a fallen man, such as myself, would need faith in the word of God!

I for the life of me cannot understand what I have done to provoke such HATEFUL comments. I have done nothing but be respectful to you in my posts and tried to debate and discuss this issue with you civily.

Despite our disagreement I for one would NEVER tell a man who claims Christ as savior that he has no faith in word of God. Based on your comments here I consider you a brother in Christ - despite our disagreement on the issue of Calvinism and Reformed theology.

heymikey80 · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
...and only a fallen man, such as myself, would need faith in the word of God!

So Jesus would not need faith. And so this just man does not live by faith, contradicting the Word of God across the ages.

No.

"The just shall live by faith" applies equally to the person just in works (pre-Fall Adam, Jesus) and the fallen creature.

JDS said:
That is the simplist of issues because God answers it in the simplist terms and directly to the point!

Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Since the gospel is what saves man and nothing else can, the unsaved must hear. There must be a preacher and the preacher must be sent to where the lost man is to tell him the gospel. This has been the subject of Paul's discourse here. There is nothing mysterious about this. The proof that the man believes is his calling upon the name of the Lord. He cannot have faith in Jesus Christ if he does not hear about him.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It's quite clear Paul is speaking to needed conditions, not sufficient conditions.

It's our role to preach Scripture and the Gospel -- but our preaching isn't enough to save. Otherwise everyone who darkens the door to hear a sermon from Scripture or Gospel then has faith.

To be clear, "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith." Heb 4:2

God's Spirit makes alive a heart that relies on God. Those who don't have faith from the Spirit can't place that faith in the word of God from a preacher, and so the message is of no value to them.

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The Spirit [wind] blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?" John 3:6-10

JDS said:
No, faith is not a part of salvation and it is not a gift or the gift in that context anywhere in scripture.

To be specific, "saved through faith" Ep 2:8 shows faith to be a part of the process of how one is saved. That verse is nowhere near a solitary verse in this respect (Rom 3:25,28,30). But faith is clearly, flatly, obviously included in what one is saved to as well, and that even in the present time. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faith." Gal 5:22

JDS · Nov 2, 2008

MamaZ said:
But every man will not be chosen.. What a humbling thought to know that it is God who does the choosing and not man.. Taking away any pride of man patting themselves on the back. I know for Me I wonder why God chose me to recieve His blessings and His Gift of Faith.. I am so grateful and love Him for this.. For in my fallen state all I could ever do was sin.. Until God plucked me from the muddy waters and washed me and gave me a new life in Him.

And where has he told you that you are chosen and someone else is not? This notion that you are particularly chosen emanates from your own heart and experienceand If I asked you how you know you are chosen, you will begin to give me subjective reasonings such as you feel better about uourself since you learned this or that you are giood now and not bad or that you attend church where other people with the same reasons for their being chosen, without any promise from God, meet together.

Yours is really a works religion because, at the end of the day. you are basing your salvation of yourself and your own experiences!

When I say "yours", I mean all those who embrace your theology. This is tragic for you folks and I feel for you. I am not your enemy. I am telling you the truth!

AndOne · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
I have not addressed the issue whether he is saved, How can I know that? !

When you make a statement that I have no faith in the word of God you are essentially saying I'm not saved.

You are doing the very thing you claim we Calvinists do - making assumptions on the state of one's faith. Which is something I told you we do not do and yet here you are doing the very thing you accuse us of.

You have asked for specific scriptures in regards to certain things and I have responded with them. When you're position is shattered with scripture you attack. I don't appreciate it. Either say you disagree and debate or drop it. But attacking me personally is WRONG.

nobdysfool · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
It is not about what I believe, friend, it is about plain words that are said in scripture. If he does not believe them, he says so with his comments. I have not addressed the issue whether he is saved, How can I know that? In my own wisdom, I would probably have judged Lot to be unsaved after reading his story in the OT but I am told he was a saved man in the NT. I am not about to fall for judging a mans salvation.

I can judge against the scriptures what you say. That is as far as I can or will go.

An example. The plain words of Scripture says Christ died for every man. (He 2:9) You would say he did not!

Another:

God so love the world Jn 3:16 You would say he did not love the world, but only a few in the world, called the elect!

And on and on!

All of which shows that you cannot answer the serious questions that have been put out there to you. You avoid them, pontificate, and slander those who press you to speak plainly. You pass judgment, and try to take people up rabbit trails to deflect from the clear fact that you cannot answer basic questions about man, and man's fallen state.

You make ridiculous statements about Reformed Theology, proving that you have no understanding of what it teaches. You were challenged to prove a statement you made, that Reformed Theology teaches that 98% of mankind will go to hell, which is a complete falsehood, and you provided no such proof of your statement. Nor could you, because it was a complete and utter fabrication and falsehood. This is the kind of "integrity" that you bring to the debate, and then you wonder why we challenge you, and call you out on your false statements and doctrines? You obviously took us for utter fools, and now you've found out that we're not, so you try and bluff and bluster your way out of it.

Quite frankly, you don't have a clue.

nobdysfool · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
Thank you! You have made my point far better than I could!

No, I destroyed your point, and exposed your falsehoods. You still won't answer the questions put to you. Even now, you avoid them like the plague, because they expose your falsehoods, and utter lack of knowledge of Reformed Theology and the truth of scriptures.

Your continued refusal to answer or explain the questions put to you, serious questions, prove that you're all bluff and bluster, with no substance to your pontifications, just a hope that someone will think you're right, without you having to actually prove anything.

Nothing but smoke and mirrors, that's all your view is.

oworm · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
When I say "yours", I mean all those who embrace your theology. This is tragic for you folks and I feel for you. I am not your enemy. I am telling you the truth!

The evidence of your concern will be found in the fervency of your prayerful supplications before the throne of grace. Your postings here are a waste of time and energy. Get on your face before God and cry out to him to reveal his truth to all of us.

His · Nov 2, 2008

double

His · Nov 2, 2008

Bibliophile said:
Hi Van

I checked oworms quotes in Wallaces book. Actually I have the text book open in front of me now at those pages. Oworms quotes are verbatim and representative of the text. Of course he does not quote word for word, probably because he is typing it out, but his quotes are extensive enough to show that they represent the theme of the question under discussion.
Can you provide quotes from the text which will show otherwise? I noticed that you hadn't quoted anything from Wallaces book and wondered how you arrived at your assumptions based on his insights.

I checked oworms reference and he was refering to your statement that

I'm sorry but I cannot see how that statement was innacurate. In fact I noticed from your post that you said that footnote 53 says that faith is not a gift per se and refers to the gift of salvation. You did exactly what you thought oworm did by taking part of the statement and quoting it with the purposing of bolstering your inclined choice of meaning. There was a preposition in their "IF' which brings a whole new meaning to the grammar of the footnote. Also the use of the term per se which means by, of for, or in itself, or intrinsically could take us down all sorts of translational rabbit trail lol

The tenor of Wallaces assumptions are somewhat vague in that he presents four positions. He does not come down on any one position with any kind of certainty. This is evident by his use of words like "Doubtful" and "inclined" He also uses the word "Plausible" Then he says that the issues are "complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone" Of course oworm did partially quote from a footnote but even that footnote is not a decisive statement which categorically states a position. (That's why its a footnote lol) and thats why Wallace says that he is "inclined to agree" with another scholar. An inclination is a preference denoting choice. And herein lies the problem for scholars and those who use them to bolster there own preferred inclinations.

Wallace takes no exegetical stand on the text of Ephesians 2:8. This is evident from the heading title that he uses when he comes to address it. The heading says it all, because the heading presents Eph 2:8 as a Debatable Example (page 334)

Interestingly in footnote 56 Wallace says that out of the 22 instances of kai touto in the New Testament 14 or 15 of them had a conceptual referent.

In conclusion it is apparent from pages 300-335 and Wallace's discussion on the exegesis of Ephesians 2:8 that his inclination toward a position and doubtfulness of another is a debatable example that "The issues here are complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone" ( Yes, that was a partial quote)

Just thought I would bump this up so that Van can see it

JDS · Nov 2, 2008

Behe's Boy said:
When you make a statement that I have no faith in the word of God you are essentially saying I'm not saved.

You are doing the very thing you claim we Calvinists do - making assumptions on the state of one's faith. Which is something I told you we do not do and yet here you are doing the very thing you accuse us of.

You have asked for specific scriptures in regards to certain things and I have responded with them. When you're position is shattered with scripture you attack. I don't appreciate it. Either say you disagree and debate or drop it. But attacking me personally is WRONG.

I am not making personal attacks against you and if you are so sensitive you cannot endure criticism, then just don't post to me any more. And none of you have debated yet from a scriptural basis, but from a religious basis. I am the only one here making my case from what the scriptures clearly say and believing it. I happen to believe Jesus Christ tasted death for every man because he said he did.

I am making attacks against the system called tulip but i am not saying EVERYONE who embraces it is lost. Some people are in error and they will not have any rewards if they remain in this condition. For the final time, I do not know who is saved or lost but I do know when someone twists scripture.

AndOne · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
I am not making personal attacks against you and if you are so sensitive you cannot endure criticism, then just don't post to me any more.

I can endure criticism. But what you are doing is not criticising. You are personally attacking me. It's WRONG.

AndOne · Nov 2, 2008

JDS said:
I am making attacks against the system called tulip but i am not saying EVERYONE who embraces it is lost.

No - but you are saying that I am.

The Tulip is broken

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