The Tulip is broken

While still await the response to the original question of why the greek text of Eph 2:8 precludes that faith is a gift of God from the authors own self proclaimed knowledge of the text, I fear that all we will get is more twisting and squirming away from the question and a continued barrage of ignorant extemporaneous ramblings from those who wish nothing more than to exalt the ability of vile and depraved men to the position of arbiters in their own salvation

Van said:

Oworm understands D Wallace has blown his entire argument out of the water, and that I was simply referring to the text book on Greek grammar, Beyond the Basics. So he changes the subject to my behavior! ROFLOL

A New Dawn, I have presented the truth of scripture. The Gift of faith is a false doctrine and Ephesians 2:8 provides no support for it according to Greek scholars.
The theory put forth by Kuyper was shown to be invalid.

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Van Why dont you answer the question from your own self proclaimed understanding of the greek text?

JDS said:

Well, the 98% of the world to whom you extend no hope does not fall to the earth with thanksgiving that you are elect and they are bound to hell through no fault of their own but by predestination by a God whose will cannot be overturned. So, there would be no need for you to fall to the ground and pray for their salvation.

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This is a fallacious claim at several points.

First of all, as NBF pointed out the "98% of the world" is pure fiction on your part and by no means indicative of the Reformed understanding of how many will be saved. Scripture seems pretty clear that there will be fewer saved than unsaved, but beyond that any declaration of percentages is pure speculation.

Second, they ARE INDEED bound to hell through fault of their own. They are born sinners and deserving of hell like all men. The judicial basis of the condemnation of men is not the decree of election but rather the sinfulnes of the individual. The very decree of election is itself within the context of the fall of man, and the decree of reprobation is passive.

Thirdly, we have NO IDEA who is and is not numbered among the elect. We are called to preach the Gospel to all men without exception, and so we do, knowing that it is the Spirit who convicts and brings men to repentance in response to the Gospel.

I don't know what you hoped to accomplish with this response, but you surely failed in making any case against the Calvinist view since you did not even correctly represent it.

Van said:

Oworm understands D Wallace has blown his entire argument out of the water, and that I was simply referring to the text book on Greek grammar, Beyond the Basics. So he changes the subject to my behavior! ROFLOL

A New Dawn, I have presented the truth of scripture. The Gift of faith is a false doctrine and Ephesians 2:8 provides no support for it according to Greek scholars.
The theory put forth by Kuyper was shown to be invalid.

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You have offered NOTHING. You refuse to quote your source and you refuse to show how Dr Wallace's exegesis shows Kuypers position to be invalid.
Moreover you now use the term "Scholars" in the plural. Which scholars Van? can you quote some to us? Can you give us some words from these greek scholars which supports your self proclaimed view that the greek text of Eph 2:8 precludes that faith is a gift from God. You cannot do that can you Van?

Van said:

Oworm denies the question as been answered. ROFLOL Why? Because he is out of bullets, his argument has been shown to be false. D. Wallace in effect says he and all the like minded Calvinists are simply making a false argument based on a lack of understanding of the text.

The TULIP is broken and denial will not put it together again.

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This is a laughable attempt yet again at avoiding the direct question that Van show from his own self proclaimed understanding of the greek text of Eph 2:8 that faith as a gift of God is pecluded.
He still persists in avoiding the question.

Van your motives are clear.

Originally Posted by Van

Are you deliberately avoiding my question?

YOU claimed that the greek grammar precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God. All I am asking is that you substantiate the claim that YOU made. Can you do that without appealing to second had knowledge? Why dont you at least quote from your source material as is normal debating proceedure when citing sources other than your self?

Folks

Van claimed in his own words that the greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 precludes that faith is a gift from God. All I am asking is that he shows FROM HIS OWN SELF PROCLAIMED UNDERSTANDING of the text, that he parse his way through the text and shows us how he arrives at his assertion. He claimed his knowledge by implication before any mention of any other source.
Folks
Please note that I am giving Van the opportunity to uphold his debating integrity and maintain his dignity by asking him to validate his claims. He can either do that or retract his statement and humbly admit that he has little or insufficient knowledge of the greek text of Ephesians save that which he has gleaned from secondary sources.

Here are Vans assertions

Originally Posted by Van
Originally Posted by Van
"Words to that effect" are an insufficient citation. If you are going to cite a source you must quote the source verbatim. If you are willing to post longwinded assertions from your own mind then surely you will take the time to quote extensively from a source that you cite in support of your assertion!

FOLKS

Here again is Vans original assertion;

Originally Posted by Van
And here are the specific posts that apply to this part of the discussion

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49073107&postcount=605

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49074429&postcount=607

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49074612&postcount=608

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49074728&postcount=609

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49074917&postcount=612

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49075418&postcount=613

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49075581&postcount=614

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49075904&postcount=616

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49085208&postcount=623

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49085208&postcount=623


And here again is my response to Vans assertion;



Van, It seemed apparent from your statement above that what you posted was out of a pre existent knowledge of the greek text? All I am asking is that you show from your own understanding of the greek grammar how the text of Ehp 2:8 precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God?

I am only asking that you substantiate your claim by referring to the greek grammar itself and showing from your own parsing of the text what you believe to be the correct exegesis. As a self proclaimed student of greek-implicit from your claim- you should be able to do that!

Why would you not be willing to do that since you yourself made the claim? Why would you not be willing to go to the greek text which is the closest to the original autograph that we have and substantiate your claim authoritively and exegetically? I would have thought this would be a golden opportunity to show decisivly and irrefutably from the infallible and inerrant word of God that faith is not a gift from God? Surely that would end the argument right here and now and leave the rest of us struck dumb in the face of truth?

Can you stand behind your claim Van and show from your knowledge of the greek text (A knowledge that you implicitly claimed to posses) that faith as a gift from God is precluded from Eph2:8?

Van
Why do you insist on avoiding dealing directly with the question and continue to refuse to quote verbatim your sources? Why wont you exegete the text from your own self proclaimed knowledge?

Van said:

Oworm denies the question as been answered.

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Where was the question answered? Please link us to the particular posts or posts which answered my question to you that from your own understanding of the greek text faith as a gift is precluded from Eph 2:8?

Because he is out of bullets,

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Out of bullets!? I havent even begun yet because you haven't answered the question yet.

his argument has been shown to be false.

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Where have you shown my argument to be false?

D. Wallace in effect says he and all the like minded Calvinists are simply making a false argument based on a lack of understanding of the text.

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Where has Dr Wallace said that?

Calvinists are simply making a false argument based on a lack of understanding of the text

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Where does Dr Wallace actually say this. Please provide verbatim quotes

nm

oworm said:

that faith as a gift from God is precluded from Eph2:8?

Van
Why do you insist on avoiding dealing directly with the question and continue to refuse to quote verbatim your sources? Why wont you exegete the text from your own self proclaimed knowledge?

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probably because he remembers the EDgar incident !!

frumanchu said:

This is a fallacious claim at several points.

First of all, as NBF pointed out the "98% of the world" is pure fiction on your part and by no means indicative of the Reformed understanding of how many will be saved. Scripture seems pretty clear that there will be fewer saved than unsaved, but beyond that any declaration of percentages is pure speculation.

Second, they ARE INDEED bound to hell through fault of their own. They are born sinners and deserving of hell like all men. The judicial basis of the condemnation of men is not the decree of election but rather the sinfulnes of the individual. The very decree of election is itself within the context of the fall of man, and the decree of reprobation is passive.

Thirdly, we have NO IDEA who is and is not numbered among the elect. We are called to preach the Gospel to all men without exception, and so we do, knowing that it is the Spirit who convicts and brings men to repentance in response to the Gospel.

I don't know what you hoped to accomplish with this response, but you surely failed in making any case against the Calvinist view since you did not even correctly represent it.

Click to expand...

http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm


Okay. I said 98% but i missed by 4 percentage points.

Sorry about that!

This figure includes some that would be considered arminian by the crowd here.


So, I was off by a couple percentage points
There are 6 billion people on the earth. Few, by comparison, are Christian, and even fewer are reformed.


Does anyone besides me ever get tired of these fellows forgetting about their stated doctrines? Here is a man who would say that God is absolutely sovereign, that he has predetermined all things after the counsel of his own will and before he ever created a spec of dust, that he has predestined most to hell, if he is true to his doctrines, and then makes a statement like this as if the sinner has a choice!

"Second, they ARE INDEED bound to hell through fault of their own. They are born sinners and deserving of hell like all men. The judicial basis of the condemnation of men is not the decree of election but rather the sinfulnes of the individual. The very decree of election is itself within the context of the fall of man, and the decree of reprobation is passive."

Gobblelegook!

Why is going to hell the fault of the man if God has pre-ordained that he go there? And why is it such a great thing for a man to fall on his face and thank God that he is one of the few elect if it is just part of his DNA programming?

I expect these men to be consistent in their theology, but they never are. They tell us these things and then comment as if they and we have a will of our own and are exhibiting self expression.

Tell me why God would not mold His clay as He see's fit.. How can the pot say to the potter why am I made this way?

JDS said:

http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm


Okay. I said 98% but i missed by 4 percentage points.

Sorry about that!

This figure includes some that would be considered arminian by the crowd here.


So, I was off by a couple percentage points
There are 6 billion people on the earth. Few, by comparison, are Christian, and even fewer are reformed.

Click to expand...

Your link is broken.

A New Dawn said:

Your link is broken.

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http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm

www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm

That one is broken, too.

I get this message.

Content Encoding Error



The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression.


The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression.

* Please contact the website owners to inform them of this problem.

Click to expand...

JDS said:

I expect these men to be consistent in their theology, but they never are. They tell us these things and then comment as if they and we have a will of our own and are exhibiting self expression.

Click to expand...

Maybe you need the Liver and Onion Parable again....

The "Liver & Onions Parable"
The Reformed Doctrine of Free Will

Suppose you detest L&O (Liver & Onions). The sight and smell makes you sick.

Just once, to appease the insistence of a friend that L&O really is good tasting, touched your tongue's tip to the L&O and the taste repulsed you.

You are invited to a buffet where a friend suggests you try some L&O. You refuse. He insists that the L&O is wonderful. He takes a bite and smiles saying "Just try it." You say, "No way!"

You freely reject the L&O because of your senses (sight, taste and smell). You do so on this occasion and every occasion it is offered to you. Your action regarding L&O is predictable and certain.

► SUCH is the unregenerate person's free rejection of God because his heart and nature is only evil continuously.

===

Now suppose this L&O loather is supernaturally changed into a L&O lover.

God changes his taste buds as well as olfactory and mental responses. Now, at the buffet he asks his friend, "What smells so good?" He is surprised to find that the great smell comes from a plate of L&O! He is further surprised that it really doesn't look that bad now, in fact it looks good. He is salivating.

He grabs a fork and timidly takes a small bite to his tongue for a test. The test becomes a taste -- then he eats a huge serving. L&O has suddenly become his favorite food. From that day on he looks for L&O whenever he can find it and he specifically requests it. He is a L&O lover now.

He freely and predictably chooses L&O after this craving has been placed upon him by God.

► SUCH is the response of one who is regenerated by receiving a new heart and nature.

====

BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves L&O. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of L&O forever and ever. Hallelujah!

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Repeatedly you have shown that you either do not understand the Reformed position or prefer torching a straw man you label the Reformed position.

"There is a difference between a debater and a theologian; the theologian seeks truth and a debater seeks to win."

--Dr. John Walvoord (class lecture 1975)

MamaZ said:

Tell me why God would not mold His clay as He see's fit.. How can the pot say to the potter why am I made this way?

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That is the question I have been asking calvinists for years.

The very small box you have him in is probably worse than hell, comparatively and figuratively s[eaking, for him!

A New Dawn said:

That one is broken, too.

I get this message.

Click to expand...

Hmmnn, it works for me!



http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm

I am doing the best I can. See if this works.

JDS said:

That is the question I have been asking calvinists for years.

The very small box you have him in is probably worse than hell, comparatively and figuratively s[eaking, for him!

Click to expand...

The very small box as you say is on you friend.. For we do not squeeze Him into having to submit to mans will. We say He is all soverein and is ruler over all..That man follows after the Patter God has set and not Him following after the pattern man has set..