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: The Truth

LewisWildermuth

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Originally posted by Flaming Blaze


If they form so easy then why is it so hard for Scientists to create them?  I would think, if it is so easy to create amino acids, they would have by now, without any problems.


Who said that amino acids are hard to make? One of the problems is that they are too easy to make. There are hundreds if not thousands of ways to make the basic amino acids.

Also, this doesn't even cover how amino acids link up to create proteins.


Again there are hundereds of ways that this can happen too. The problem is trying to pick the way it happened on earth.



He was talking about there being no headway at all in the field of Abiogenesis.  That is the main point of that entire quote.  I am sorry that completely went over your head.

There is not a lack of progress at all, it is just not as simple of a problem as you seem to believe. This is not a simple 1+1=2 problem here, there are thousands of known variables and more being discovered every day. We know the answer is 2 but there are tens of thousands of ways to get that answer and picking the correct way to get to the answer is the hard part.


The thing is, if Scientists find that abiogenesis cannot happen then there would be a problem with evolution.

There HAS to be a begining for evolution to work without a creator.

And who said that there was no creator, there might have been, but science cannot just assume there was one.

Evolution is simply the changing over time of existing populations. It does not matter if God or aliens or nature put those populations there in the first place. The fact is that they change. You are not the same as your parents, they are not the same as their parents and so on.

Abiogenesis and ToE may never be reconciled without the aide of time travel, but that in no way proves either one wrong.

And the problem with aliens is you are just moving the problem of the begining of life elsewhere.

It moves the problem to the same place as saying "God did it" does. so to try and eliminate the alien solution also eliminates the God solution and we are left with nature, which is what science is looking at anyway.

size=1]Would you give me a good site about this, with what you want me to know.  I would like to know what you are talking about.

Amino Acids in space

http://cca.arc.nasa.gov/projects/contextp.cfm?id=24

http://www.cosmiverse.com/news/space/space05290206.html

http://astrochem.org/aanature.html

RNA world

http://www.nobel.se/chemistry/articles/altman/

http://www.americanscientist.org/articles/95articles/cdeduve.html
 
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Morat: Blaze, honey...amino acids form easily.

Flaming blaze: If they form so easy then why is it so hard for Scientists to create them? I would think, if it is so easy to create amino acids, they would have by now, without any problems.

Also, this doesn't even cover how amino acids link up to create proteins.

DNAunion: Blaze, I think you let Morat confuse you into defending a position you didn’t state.

I skimmed your posts in this thread above Morat’s and I didn’t see you say once that amino acids are “impossible” or “extremely difficult” to create. In fact, you said that Miller’s experiment created some (just "the wrong ones" and that they didn’t link up).

 

PS:  DNAunion:  I went back and looked again and didn't see Flaming Blaze saying that amino acids are impossible or difficult to form, until AFTER Morat sort of stuffed those words into his mouth.  Here's the closest I could find. .... Never mind - I tried copying it and got all kinds of unwanted stuff that I couldn't get rid of.  People can go back and see what Flaming Blaze said in the post just before Morat made his out-of-the-blue comment.
 
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Flaming blaze: Everyone agrees there’s water on Earth, right? This means no matter what there has to be oxygen. You see the sun heats up the Earth and water evaporates. So now you have hydrogen and oxygen floating around. Since hydrogen in the lightest element some of it leaves the Earths atmoshere and escapes into space leaving the oxygen. And that brings us to the fact that amino acids don't link up when oxygen is present.

bonobo: Hm, could it be that there is some misunderstanding of basic chemistry and physics? When water evaporates, it is still water, it does not split up into its components. So by evaporation of water you don't get "hydrogen and oxygen floating around".


Flaming blaze [quoting material]: Solar radiation would have broken water vaper into oxygen and hydrogen. Some of the hydrogen, the lightest of all chemical elements, would then have escaped into outer space, leaving behind excess oxygen. -R. T. Brinkmann, "Dissociation of Water Vapor and Evolution of Oxygen in the Terrestrial Atmosphere," Journal of Geophysical Research, Vol. 74, No.23, 20 October 1969, pp. 5355-5368.

DNAunion: Beat me to the punch! Yes, the process is called photolysis and still occurs today.

However, the consensus among mainstream OOL researchers is that the molecular oxygen that would have been produced by photolysis would not have been able to accumulate in the atmosphere (used up as fast as it was produced), which would mean that photolysis couldn't have maintained any kind of a meaningful concentration of diatomic oxygen.
 
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LewisWildermuth: Who said that amino acids are hard to make?

DNAunion: That’s a good question…I think that Flaming Blaze might have gotten those words put into his mouth the first time, then when later confronted about it, thought he was defending something he had said earlier.

LewisWildermuth: One of the problems is that they are too easy to make. There are hundreds if not thousands of ways to make the basic amino acids.

DNAunion: That’s kind of a problem. Although the rule is that only 20 different amino acids are used by organisms – the same set of twenty in all organisms – there are hundreds of different kinds of amino acids. Studies of meteorites have shown that many of these non-biological amino acids are present, and the Miller experiment produced more of the “incorrect” amino acids than the “correct” kind.

There’s also the problem of homochirality: the exclusive use of left-handed amino acids during protein synthesis, as a rule. Since Miller’s experiment and natural processes produce both chiral forms (left and right handed enantiomers) in equal amounts, then even if we assume pools consisting of only the 20 biological amino acids we still have just as many “wrong” ones as you do “right” ones.
 
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Flaming Blaze: Also, this doesn’t even cover how amino acids linked up to create proteins.

LewisWildermuth: Again there are hundereds of ways that this can happen too. The problem is trying to pick the way it happened on earth.

DNAunion: No proteins have been formed under prebiotically plausible conditions. There are not hundreds of ways known to do so – there isn’t even one.
 
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DNAunion: Concerning whether or not the abiotic production of amino acids is easy or difficult, it’s closer to the “easy” side.

STRECKER SYNTHESIS
The main method of amino acid formation mentioned in OOL material is the Strecker synthesis – named after the scientist who first used it to create the amino acid alanine. As far as reactants are concerned, it requires the following:

1) hydrogen cyanide (HCN)
2) ammonia (NH3)
3) an aldehyde (R-COH)

HCN is considered to have been extremely abundant in prebiotic times (actually, there’s something that challenges that assumption, but I’ll ignore it for this discussion), and the other two are also considered to have been plentiful (though possibly to a lesser extent).

In the original synthesis of an amino acid by Strecker, the aldehyde used was actetaldehyde, which produced the amino acid alanine. But for the simplest case, we’ll use formaldehyde (R = H, giving H-COH).

HCN + NH3 + H-COH <-> H2C(NH2)CN + H2O
H2C(NH2)CN + H2O -> H2C(NH2)CO(NH2)
H2C(NH2)CO(NH2) + H2O -> (NH2)CH2(COOH) + NH3

Where (NH2)CH2(COOH) is the simplest amino acid, glycine.

GETTING AMINO ACIDS NOT THE PROBLEM
The Strecker synthesis is believed to be the source of most of the amino acids that have been found in meteorites. It is also the pathway by which amino acids were formed in the Stanley Miller electric-discharge-in-a-highly-reduced-atmosphere experiment. In addition, IIRC, free amino acids (i.e., external to any organisms) have been found at deep-sea hydrothermal vents (though I don’t recall by what method they are supposed to have been produced).

So the real problem for prebiotic chemistry in relation to proteins is not getting amino acids to form, it’s a combination of (1) getting only the “correct” amino acids and (2) getting those correct amino acids to polymerize into proteins.

(1) Getting the “correct” amino acids

HOMOCHIRALITY

19 of the 20 (primary) biological amino acids are chiral, meaning that they have both a left-handed and a right-handed version. For a given chiral amino acid, the two “optical isomers” are mirror images of each other, but are not superimposible one upon the other, and are therefore called enantiomers. To get an idea, think about your left and right hands – they are mirror images of each other but there is no way that you can orient them such that they are superimposible (the closest you can get is palm-to-palm, but then the knuckles of one hand point in one direction – say left – and the knuckles of the other hand point in the opposite direction – say right). Note that both enantiomers of a given amino acid have identical chemical and physical properties.

In biology, the rule is that only left-handed amino acids are used during protein synthesis. In biological terms, a protein is a linear, unbranched chain of left-handed amino acid residues bonded together by peptide bonds, with the chain folding up into a stable three-dimensional conformation that performs a particular biological function. This restriction to using only one of the two (chemically and physically equivalent) chiral forms of a molecule is called homochirality.

OOL researchers have stated that for life to arise, the polymers that kickstarted it (be they nucleic acids or proteins) needed to be composed of homochiral monomers (i.e., for proteins, to have all the same enantiomeric forms of amino acids, such as all left-handed).

But natural processes produce racemic mixtures of amino acids. A racemic mixture (or racemate) contains equal quantities of both enantiomers. Thus, in general, for every 1,000 left-handed lysine molecules nature would produce in a given microscopic environment it would also produce 1,000 right-handed lysines.

But if nature produces both enantiomers in equal amounts, how did the first proteins manage to have all left-handed amino acids?

Here comes the part most people object to – probability calculations. I admit they’re not perfect, but hey, we gotta have some kind of idea of what’s going on.

Suppose a protein capable of a useful function – for our purposes, self-replication - needed to be at least 50 amino acids in length. Each of those 50 positions could be occupied by either an L-amino acid or a D-amino acid (L is levo, or left-handed; D- is dextro, or right-handed). Assuming equal likelihood of incorporation for both the L- and D- forms (since they have identical chemical and physical properties), the probability of obtaining a chain of 50 all-left-handed amino acids is 2^50, or about 10^15. So in general, you’d need 10^15 randomly generated amino acid sequences to have a 50% chance of getting at least one that was all left-handed.

Let me address a counterargument sometimes heard. The original argument is that having both enantiomers makes it less likely to hit upon a functional sequence because you first have to get all left-handed ones before you can even think about getting the correct sequence. But wouldn’t having more types – more “shapes” -- of building blocks to work with make it possible to have more ways to construct a functional three-dimensional shape for a polypeptide? Yes, it would. But there’s a problem…although the number of possible functional arrangements increases, the number of non-functional arrangements increases to a much greater degree. Let me try using an analogy.

Let’s start with the numbers 0 – 19, with each representing one of the twenty biological amino acids. You need a “polypeptide” just two units long and it will function if the sum of those two numbers equals 10. So functional sequences include 0+10, or 1+9, or 2+8, …, 9+1, 10+0. There are 11 possible functional sequences in all. But with two slots and 20 possibilities for each slot there are 20^2 = 400 possible sequences in total. So the probability of hitting upon a functional sequence in one random shot is 11/400, or about 0.0275.

Now let’s throw in the other enantiomers – that is, let’s include the “mirror opposites” of the numbers used above. With the addition of the negative numbers -1 through -19, there are now many more ways to get a functional sequence: 19+(-9), 18+(-8), …, -8+18, and -9+19. So yes, we now have more than double the number of correct combinations, going from 11 to 29. But…we now have 39 possibilities for each slot, not 20. So there are now 39^2 = 1521 possible combinations in all. Our probability of success has dropped from 0.0275 down to 29/1521 = 0.00986. We’ve lost ground.

SEQUENCE INFORMATION
But there’s more. There’s no good reason to believe that that ONE 50-aa polypeptide formed would be capable of performing self-replication. What is needed is a very specific sequence in order to perform this function, not just any old sequence. Though science still does not know exactly how small the probability of hitting up a self-replicating peptide is (since no actual self-replicating proteins are known), it is difficult to do accurate calculations. So we must accept that the range of inaccuracy increases yet again with the next calculations.

Let us assume that only 1 in 10^20 all-left-handed-aa polypeptides 50 units long are capable of self-replication (I am intentionally vastly overestimating the power of proteins here – I don’t expect to be quoted on this value).

Combining the two previous crude calculations we end up with needing 10^15 x 10^20 = 10^35 randomly generated polypeptides to have a 50% chance of hitting upon at least one that could self-replicate (and again, I am probably vastly overestimating the power of proteins here, to err on the side of caution).

OTHER AMINO ACIDS
So far we have looked at getting only the left-handed forms of the 20 biological amino acids, and producing a functional sequence. But there’s more to the story. Why only consider the 20 biologically relevant amino acids? In a prebiotic context, all aa’s that were present should be considered. And guess what? There are hundreds of different types of amino acids (this does not count left- and right-handed forms at two, but as one). And the Miller experiment and examinations of meteorites both show that more of the non-biologically relevant amino acids are produced by natural processes.


FINAL ROUGH CALCULATION
Let’s pull all of this prebiotic amino acid stuff together to formulate one overall probability. Here are the assumptions.

1) From a prebiotic racemic mixture, only left-handed amino acids get incorporated into the protein

2) From a prebiotic mixture containing roughly equal amounts of 40 different types of amino acids, only the 20 biologically relevant ones get incorporated into the protein

3) A self-replicating protein (capable of evolving) must be at least 50 amino acids in length

4) 1 in 10^20 proteins that meet the above criteria (only the left-handed enantiomers of the 20 biologically relevant amino acids are bonded together, 50 in all) can self-replicate.

Each slot has 80 possibilities (40 types of amino acids x 2 enantiomers each = 80). With 50 slots altogether, the probability of getting a self-replicating protein in a single random attempt is P(replicator) = 1 in 80^50 = 1 in 1.427 x 10^95.

And yet there’s more. We have to keep in mind that this assumes amino acids react only with other amino acids. As examinations of meteorites have shown, non-biological process create a “witches brew” consisting of all sorts of molecules. Some – such as sugars – would react with the amino acids and preclude them from making it into a protein. Other organic molecules would tend to terminate one end of the growing chain, thus halting elongation of the polypeptide.

All in all, getting a self-replicating protein from truly prebiotic conditions doesn’t look very promising (and, getting a self-replicating RNA may be even worse – at least the monomers of proteins are prebiotically plausible!).

(2) Getting those correct amino acids to polymerize into proteins
This topic was short changed in the above – it was simply assumed that amino acids could be polymerized into proteins. But how? Here are some general concepts to keep in mind.

In aqueous solutions the thermodynamic tendency is for hydrolysis – not dehydration synthesis - to occur. Yet it is the latter (also called condensation) that is involved in the joining together of two amino acids. The carboxyl group (-COOH*) of one aa reacts with the amino group (-NH2*) of another aa to form a bond, and in doing so, the equivalent of one molecule of water is removed (OH from one and H from the other, forming H2O). Drying conditions – not aqueous solutions - favor dehydration synthesis.

So why not just throw heat energy at amino acids? Actually, that works…well, kind of. The high temperature removes excess water and adds energy that can drive bond formation. However, the resulting “stuff” isn’t proteins, it’s proteinoid. The only point I will make here is that the resulting chains are highly branched, not linear. Why? Remember how I stated that amino acids bond by the carboxyl group of one aa reacting with the amino group of another? Well, some of the amino acids have these same functional groups on their side chains. Thus, instead of joining only end-to-end, amino acids can join side-to-end, messing up the linear series. In fact, one amino acid can join end-to-end with one amino acid, and side-to-end with another, thus forming branches. So instead of having a linear chain, you have get a branched and mangled chain.

THE END :)

*NOTE: Some biology books list these functional groups as –COO- and NH3+ for amino acids, because at cellular pH, they become ionized.

PS:  I came back to emphasize that my probability calculation is not meant to be definitive or accurate. 
 
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