The Truth about the city of Sodom

Hoshiyya

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The Civilizational Dichotomy of Genesis: Pastoral Abraham & Urban Sodom.

Rav Dror Moshe Cassouto recenly talked about Sodom in a shiur, and what their true sin was, which inspired me to look further into the issue.

When people say the sin of Sodom was lack of hospitality, they usually have an agenda, namely to suggest that homosexuality "is not such a bad thing." But they misunderstand the origin of the idea. It was actually the Rabbis that came up with this idea. Their intent was not to excuse homosexuality.

The people of Sodom did practice homosexual rape, but not out of attraction to men. If they had wanted to rape men they would try to lure them to their city, saying: "Don't believe the rumors, it's a great city, come visit us, bring your sons." But they didn't. They practiced sexual terror and cultivated a rumor of being perverse rapists exactly so as to discourage visitors and people seeking refuge in Sodom.

They encouraged outsiders to believe the negative rumors, actually they would have encouraged them to believe an even more extreme version of events.

From what I'm told, it appears their pattern was to let people go after abusing them, exactly so the rumor could spread. If the victims exaggerated what happened to them, even better.

The Biblical story begins with the travellers being kindly received by the hospitable bedouin Abraham, then shows the travellers being exposed to the extreme inhospitality of the people of Sodom. The story thus contrasts Bedouin hospitality with an evil, inhospitable city that goes so far in its inhospitality as to abuse or threaten to abuse people seeking refuge.

The story clearly represents the perspective of nomadic culture / people, or at least the perspective of people that place nomadic values above urban values, regardless of whether they themselves are nomads.

The story of Cain and Abel also presents the pastoralist (Abel with flock) as superior to the settled agrarian (Cain with the fruit of the earth.) God himself prefers Abel's sacrifice, the text takes care to note.

The agrarian and the urban lifestyle may be distinguished, but for the intents and purposes of the scriptures they are both treated as opposite to the pastoral / nomadic way of life.


These ways of life are connected to different categories of civilization, different ways in which a society may be organized.

All of Israel was organized as a nomadic society under Moses while wandering in the Sinai, living a similar lifestyle to that lived by the nomadic Patriarchs and by Moses while staying with the bedouin Jethro.
A nomadic civilization is usually autonomous.

The next category is that of a settled nation, divided into cities, each city usually having multiple villages tributary to it. The city is a walled settlement, while the village is an agrarian settlement. On its most basic level the relationship between village and city boils down to the city needing food from the village, and in return the villagers can seek refuge behind city walls when they need to.
A settled nation may be fully autonomous or it may be a vassal state.

The third category of civilization would be that of the subculture, which is explored in the accounts of Israel's time as a subculture in Egypt and later in Persia.
Subcultures are never truly autonomous, but may be granted some measure of autonomy if the dominant culture decides to allow it.

The Bible shows us Abraham leaving the city of Ur to live as a pastoral nomad. His descendants decide to resettle in Egypt, ultimately becoming an oppressed minority there. They then leave, becoming nomads again. They gradually conquer Canaan and shift into a settled nation of villages and cities, even making other such settled nations tributary to them under the reign of David and Solomon.

On a civilizational level, and from a Spenglerian standpoint, this was the golden age, the zenith, of historical Israel. They ruled over others, and were not ruled by others. The glory of the days of Solomon was never recaptured. For the next 2500 years, Israel would go on to exist as a non-autonomous people in their own land and as a non-autonomous people, a subculture, in foreign lands.

By the hand of Hashem, Israel became a modern nation, officially independent for almost 70 years.


But ultimately, why is lack of hospitality such a big sin ?

Hospitality is especially important because one day, near the end of this era, Hashem will send his witnesses. They will rely on the hospitality of others, much as did the apostles when they were sent out by Yeshua in the first century and had to rely on hospitality to survive.
 

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The Civilizational Dichotomy of Genesis: Pastoral Abraham & Urban Sodom.

Rav Dror Moshe Cassouto recenly talked about Sodom in a shiur, and what their true sin was, which inspired me to look further into the issue.

When people say the sin of Sodom was lack of hospitality, they usually have an agenda, namely to suggest that homosexuality "is not such a bad thing." But they misunderstand the origin of the idea. It was actually the Rabbis that came up with this idea. Their intent was not to excuse homosexuality.

The people of Sodom did practice homosexual rape, but not out of attraction to men. If they had wanted to rape men they would try to lure them to their city, saying: "Don't believe the rumors, it's a great city, come visit us, bring your sons." But they didn't. They practiced sexual terror and cultivated a rumor of being perverse rapists exactly so as to discourage visitors and people seeking refuge in Sodom.

They encouraged outsiders to believe the negative rumors, actually they would have encouraged them to believe an even more extreme version of events.

From what I'm told, it appears their pattern was to let people go after abusing them, exactly so the rumor could spread. If the victims exaggerated what happened to them, even better.

The Biblical story begins with the travellers being kindly received by the hospitable bedouin Abraham, then shows the travellers being exposed to the extreme inhospitality of the people of Sodom. The story thus contrasts Bedouin hospitality with an evil, inhospitable city that goes so far in its inhospitality as to abuse or threaten to abuse people seeking refuge.

The story clearly represents the perspective of nomadic culture / people, or at least the perspective of people that place nomadic values above urban values, regardless of whether they themselves are nomads.

The story of Cain and Abel also presents the pastoralist (Abel with flock) as superior to the settled agrarian (Cain with the fruit of the earth.) God himself prefers Abel's sacrifice, the text takes care to note.

The agrarian and the urban lifestyle may be distinguished, but for the intents and purposes of the scriptures they are both treated as opposite to the pastoral / nomadic way of life.


These ways of life are connected to different categories of civilization, different ways in which a society may be organized.

All of Israel was organized as a nomadic society under Moses while wandering in the Sinai, living a similar lifestyle to that lived by the nomadic Patriarchs and by Moses while staying with the bedouin Jethro.
A nomadic civilization is usually autonomous.

The next category is that of a settled nation, divided into cities, each city usually having multiple villages tributary to it. The city is a walled settlement, while the village is an agrarian settlement. On its most basic level the relationship between village and city boils down to the city needing food from the village, and in return the villagers can seek refuge behind city walls when they need to.
A settled nation may be fully autonomous or it may be a vassal state.

The third category of civilization would be that of the subculture, which is explored in the accounts of Israel's time as a subculture in Egypt and later in Persia.
Subcultures are never truly autonomous, but may be granted some measure of autonomy if the dominant culture decides to allow it.

The Bible shows us Abraham leaving the city of Ur to live as a pastoral nomad. His descendants decide to resettle in Egypt, ultimately becoming an oppressed minority there. They then leave, becoming nomads again. They gradually conquer Canaan and shift into a settled nation of villages and cities, even making other such settled nations tributary to them under the reign of David and Solomon.

On a civilizational level, and from a Spenglerian standpoint, this was the golden age, the zenith, of historical Israel. They ruled over others, and were not ruled by others. The glory of the days of Solomon was never recaptured. For the next 2500 years, Israel would go on to exist as a non-autonomous people in their own land and as a non-autonomous people, a subculture, in foreign lands.

By the hand of Hashem, Israel became a modern nation, officially independent for almost 70 years.


But ultimately, why is lack of hospitality such a big sin ?

Hospitality is especially important because one day, near the end of this era, Hashem will send his witnesses. They will rely on the hospitality of others, much as did the apostles when they were sent out by Yeshua in the first century and had to rely on hospitality to survive.

As i was reading your post, this came to mind:

Why didn't they ever rape Lot?

Interesting post.

Thank you.
 
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brinny

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Good point !

From what I have learned it seems he apparently was able to settle there and be seen as one of them, and not be seen as a guest.

Thank you.

Interesting study.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Hoshiyya said:
The Civilizational Dichotomy of Genesis: Pastoral Abraham & Urban Sodom.

Rav Dror Moshe Cassouto recenly talked about Sodom in a shiur, and what their true sin was, which inspired me to look further into the issue.
- snip -
The people of Sodom did practice homosexual rape, but not out of attraction to men... They practiced sexual terror and cultivated a rumor of being perverse rapists exactly so as to discourage visitors and people seeking refuge in Sodom.
I'm not denying this explanation is correct - never examined it closely - but would it not have been simpler to require certain achievements for 'citizenship'? For instance: a minimal amount of livestock, a minimal amount of money in the bank (at least metaphorically), a usable (to the city) trade and required tools and so on.

It also strikes me as odd this 'preventative measure' would be applied against two 'men' who seemed to be travelers, not settlers.

As long as I'm on about this: Presumably Lot would know about this 'custom'. So there would be no point in offering his daughters in trade under those circumstances.
 
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Hoshiyya

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I'm not denying this explanation is correct - never examined it closely - but would it not have been simpler to require certain achievements for 'citizenship'? For instance: a minimal amount of livestock, a minimal amount of money in the bank (at least metaphorically), a usable (to the city) trade and required tools and so on.

It also strikes me as odd this 'preventative measure' would be applied against two 'men' who seemed to be travelers, not settlers.

As long as I'm on about this: Presumably Lot would know about this 'custom'. So there would be no point in offering his daughters in trade under those circumstances.


I think we need to know whether the root cause for this lack of hospitality is economical or not, to answer you fully.

The sending out of his daughter makes more sense if they are not genuinely homosexual, don't you think? (I think Lot was trying to appease them in some way, and that he considered it worse for men to be raped than for women.)

There is also an interesting verse in the NT, where Yeshua basically says the people of Sodom are more righteous than some of the Pharisees, an extreme statement. However it is much less extreme if we assume he and the Pharisees were aware of the tradition that much of Sodom's bad reputation was a ruse.
 
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Hoshiyya said:
I think we need to know whether or not the root cause for this lack of hospitality is economical or not, to answer you fully.
Yes. Right now I'm lacking much information about this.

Hoshiyya said:
The sending out of his daughter makes more sense if they are not genuinely homosexual, don't you think?
No, I don't. I think knowing the reason for the action - punishment or deterrent - negates the possibility of diverting the men's intent.

Hoshiyya said:
(I think Lot was trying to appease them in some way, and that he considered it worse for men to be raped than for women.)I agree Lot was trying to protect the men who were guests in his home. I've always been under the impression in that culture having a guest in one's home injured was a source of shame and embarrassment to be avoided at all costs. Perhaps that's not correct.

Hoshiyya said:
There is also an interesting verse in the NT, where Yeshua basically says the people of Sodom are more righteous than some of the Pharisees, an extreme statement.
There are three occasions where Yeshua (Jesus in the common usage in English) uses this contrast of "It will be better for Sodom (and Gomorrah) than you, [fill in the blank]!" These statements were always in the context of (paraphrasing) 'Even the wicked people of Sodom were better than you people!' The meaning isn't 'Sodom wasn't so bad' but 'You lot are worse!'

I might point out Genesis 13:13 mentions Sodom as populated by 'wicked rebels against the LORD (Adoni)'.

Hoshiyya said:
However it is much less extreme if we assume he and the Pharisees were aware of the tradition that much of Sodom's bad reputation was a ruse.
It would be if that is what He meant. I cannot find the passage to which you refer about the Pharisees - although Jesus did say some rather unpleasant things about that group.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Yes. Right now I'm lacking much information about this.

No, I don't. I think knowing the reason for the action - punishment or deterrent - negates the possibility of diverting the men's intent.

You say "No, I don't." Then you say "I agree Lot was trying to protect the men who were guests in his home". How can this be? Only one of these replies you gave can be true.

Giving the girl is a way for Lot to appease them. If they did not have lust for women, and only for men, this doesn't make sense. Take the girl instead of the men, as it is worse for a man to be raped than a woman.

When a mob gathers, it is hard to disperse it. It does not willingly disperse. Something big has to happen. Either the door was getting broken down and men might get violated, or just one woman, and the house might still stand.

(It actually reminds me of the story of Dinah.)
 
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Hoshiyya

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>The meaning isn't 'Sodom wasn't so bad' but 'You lot are worse!'

I never said that was the meaning. I am saying that "you are worse than Sodomites" makes more sense in the context described.

Secondly we can't forget that he is exaggerating.

I would much rather someone be a religious hypocrite than a rapist. I would rather someone say something hypocritical to me, than rape me. So clearly they are not literally worse than Sodom, but even as an exaggeration it is extreme.

I remember reading a Chick tract, which suggested the Sodomites raped their own children. Sounds like Chick fell for the ruse. If Chick was right, and the people who hold that kind of view of Sodom are right, then the exaggeration is even more extreme!

Edit: corrected name of tract
 
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As i was reading your post, this came to mind:

Why didn't they ever rape Lot?

Interesting post.

Thank you.

They didn't want him. They wanted the transfigured angels whose irresistible presence they felt.

They didn't even want his Virgin daughter.

From apocrypha, Sodom was also known for luring strangers into their land, giving them money for help, then strapping them up and beating the literal charity out of them.

It would have been like Chicago, West Hollywood and Birmingham, Alabama rolled into one city sized region. Violence galore, sexual immorality and rape galore, and absolute derision for strangers and outsiders.

That is why the "hospitality" explanation needs to stop; it makes God look like an irrational child. God didn't obliterate an entire city because of hospitality issues when he had patience for the atrocities of the Egyptian done to His people, and He was shown to show mercy to Nineveh when they repented. Sodom was degenerate. And, the straw that broke the spiritual camel''s back was when they focused their lusts on angels who were sent to destroy them! That is how backward and degenerate they were.

And, they wouldn't have stopped at simply "knowing" the angels, they would have done everything to them according to their customs if allowed.
 
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Hoshiyya

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They didn't want him. They wanted the transfigured angels whose irresistible presence they felt.

They didn't even want his Virgin daughter.

From apocrypha, Sodom was also known for luring strangers into their land, giving them money for help, then strapping them up and beating the literal charity out of them.

It would have been like Chicago, West Hollywood and Birmingham, Alabama rolled into one city sized region. Violence galore, sexual immorality and rape galore, and absolute derision for strangers and outsiders.

That is why the "hospitality" explanation needs to stop; it makes God look like an irrational child. God didn't obliterate an entire city because of hospitality issues when he had patience for the atrocities of the Egyptian done to His people, and He was shown to show mercy to Nineveh when they repented. Sodom was degenerate. And, the straw that broke the spiritual camel''s back was when they focused their lusts on angels who were sent to destroy them! That is how backward and degenerate they were.

And, they wouldn't have stopped at simply "knowing" the angels, they would have done everything to them according to their customs if allowed.

Your explanation does not make sense.

God is not irrational, but your version of things results in him being as "irrational" as he would've been in any other case.

I might as well say, why intervene on Sodom, instead of Holocaust?

Your argument seems to require Sodom to be worse than the Holocaust was.
 
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Aryeh

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Why all the hate on Birmingham? Now Orleans is tons worse than Birmingham.

Ha...

I just said one of the most recognizable cities/areas known for not being so kind to foreign strangers. New Orleans is a bit more cosmopolitan in terms of visitors. It may be worse crime wise, but not for the culture of treatment comparative to sodom.

The fact that "Birmingham" triggers similar feelings of dread and "inhospitality" as would trigger for a foreigner hearing about Sodom makes it relevant.

I didn't mean anything specifically insukting, or personal about the choice.
 
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Hoshiyya said:
You say "No, I don't." Then you say "I agree Lot was trying to protect the men who were guests in his home". How can this be? Only one of these replies you gave can be true.
Sorry for your confusion. I answer two of your questions without a suitable break.

Hoshiyya said:
Giving the girl is a way for Lot to appease them. If they did not have lust for women, and only for men, this doesn't make sense. Take the girl instead of the men, as it is worse for a man to be raped than a woman.
You are repeating yourself. It has some potential, but isn't compelling to me either the first time or the second time.

Hoshiyya said:
Either the door was getting broken down and men might get violated, or just one woman, and the house might still stand.
A question, if you don't mind. Are you familiar with the Genesis account? In the Tanakh, this account is related in Genesis 19 - the same location as in the Christian Bible. The reason I ask is your last cited statement indicates a certain unfamiliarity.

You might compare the Genesis account with the book or essay you cite and note the differences.

Hoshiyya said:
(It actually reminds me of the story of Dinah.)
Are you talking about the story relating the rape of Dinah in Genesis 34, or are you thinking about the story of the men raping and murdering the concubine in Judges 19? There are some similarities in both; more in the Judges 19 account, to my mind.

Now you bring it up, if the men of Sodom weren't really so evil, why did God destroy the place so thoroughly it cannot be found?
 
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Aryeh

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Your explanation does not make sense.

God is not irrational, but your version of things results in him being as "irrational" as he would've been in any other case.

I might as well say, why intervene on Sodom, instead of Holocaust?

Your argument seems to require Sodom to be worse than the Holocaust was.

Sodom was already condemned for destruction by God.

I don't see how you got your conclusions from what I posted. Sodom and the Holocaust are two completely different things: one was a genocide by men, the other was a judgment by God.

There are things, though, that have been as bad or worse than the Holocaust. For one, the Egyptian treatment of Hebrews for hundreds of years. The Phillistines eating humans, using their bones as stock for soup, and teaching Hebrews witchcraft and human sacrifice.

Even contemporary slavery in America: men were raped, tortured, beaten, forced to breed with their siblings, forced to be "buck broken," and so much more. We aren't even talking about what the men or women went through.

And yet, God did not intervene in this situations until the time was right. So, what are you trying to say?

God isn't the God of Intervention for the Human Folly and Consequences of Sin. He is merciful so He may intervene - especially for His people. But, He has already saved us, so our moral categorization of which incident warrants His intervention is a moot point.

And, it seems you think there was "intervention" in Sodom. Sodom was already supposed to be destroyed BEFORE the angels came. They came to destroy Sodom. That is judgment, not intervention.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Sorry for your confusion. I answer two of your questions without a suitable break.

You are repeating yourself. It has some potential, but isn't compelling to me either the first time or the second time.

A question, if you don't mind. Are you familiar with the Genesis account? In the Tanakh, this account is related in Genesis 19 - the same location as in the Christian Bible. The reason I ask is your last cited statement indicates a certain unfamiliarity.

You might compare the Genesis account with the book or essay you cite and note the differences.

Are you talking about the story relating the rape of Dinah in Genesis 34, or are you thinking about the story of the men raping and murdering the concubine in Judges 19? There are some similarities in both; more in the Judges 19 account, to my mind.

Now you bring it up, if the men of Sodom weren't really so evil, why did God destroy the place so thoroughly it cannot be found?


"Sorry for your confusion. I answer two of your questions without a suitable break."

It still doesn't make sense. I don't see how you can not get one thing, but then agree with another way of saying the same thing.

"your last cited statement indicates a certain unfamiliarity. "

Ok it was two women, my mistake. Doesn't make a fundamental difference.

I compare it to the story of Dinah, because like Lot, old man Jacob apparently felt it was better that a woman be raped; in his case the alternative was, in his mind, to go to war with the city or city-state called Shechem. What he did not know was that like in Sodom, two males (Levi and Simeon) would be given great power to wreak vengeance.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Sodom was already condemned for destruction by God.

I don't see how you got your conclusions from what I posted. Sodom and the Holocaust are two completely different things: one was a genocide by men, the other was a judgment by God.

There are things, though, that have been as bad or worse than the Holocaust. For one, the Egyptian treatment of Hebrews for hundreds of years. The Phillistines eating humans, using their bones as stock for soup, and teaching Hebrews witchcraft and human sacrifice.

Even contemporary slavery in America: men were raped, tortured, beaten, forced to breed with their siblings, forced to be "buck broken," and so much more. We aren't even talking about what the men or women went through.

And yet, God did not intervene in this situations until the time was right. So, what are you trying to say?

God isn't the God of Intervention for the Human Folly and Consequences of Sin. He is merciful so He may intervene - especially for His people. But, He has already saved us, so our moral categorization of which incident warrants His intervention is a moot point.

And, it seems you think there was "intervention" in Sodom. Sodom was already supposed to be destroyed BEFORE the angels came. They came to destroy Sodom. That is judgment, not intervention.

I was replying to what you said here:

That is why the "hospitality" explanation needs to stop; it makes God look like an irrational child. God didn't obliterate an entire city because of hospitality issues when he had patience for the atrocities of the Egyptian done to His people, and He was shown to show mercy to Nineveh when they repented. Sodom was degenerate. And, the straw that broke the spiritual camel''s back was when they focused their lusts on angels who were sent to destroy them! That is how backward and degenerate they were.
 
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