The truth about scriptual Baptism

[kayanne]

Another question..

According to Baptist theology, if one was baptised as an infant, would they eed to be baptised again as an adult?

If one was baptized as an infant, the baptism occurred before saving faith was present. If this infant, at some point when he is old enough to understand, comes to Christ in repentance and is saved, he does not NEED to be baptized to "complete his salvation" or "add to his salvation" or anything like that. He OUGHT to be baptized to obey the Scriptures. And if he wants to become a member of a Baptist church, most (possibly all?) Baptist churches would require believer's baptism for membership. ("believer's baptism" meaning simply that the baptism occurred to a "believer" not to an infant incapable of believing, or anyone else who was baptized before genuine salvation. Generally immersion is required). This requirement to participate in "believer's baptism", as taught by Baptists, is because a true Christian should obey God's Word to the best of their ability, and there is generally no reason or excuse to refuse believer's baptism. (except maybe extreme illness, being bed-ridden, etc could make immersion impossible). Other than these rare and extreme situations, if a person will not even obey this easy-to-obey commandment, they cannot become a member of the church or be entrusted with responsibilities given only to members (ie teachers, elders, deacons).

 

[Filia Mariae]

If Baptism does not save, why does it matter whether or not its full immersion?

 

[Propadeutic]

Is the other article online somewhere?

It's on my website (check my profile). The specific file is baptism.html . It contains answers to questions about the Baptist understanding of baptism, excerpts from major Baptist confessions, and a list of all the baptisms in the New Testament.

On the translation of 1 Peter 3:21, the Greek is ho kai hymas antitypon nun sózei baptisma, ou sarkos apothesis rhypou alla suneidéseós agathés eperótéma eis theon di' anastaseós Iésou Christou.

I offer this: "Also [its] antitype, baptism, now saves you, not the taking away of dirt from the flesh, but the appeal to God proceeding from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

The two best interpretations of this that I've heard are (1) that Peter is talking about spiritual baptism and specifies that by saying he's not talking about physical washing (which, like Noah's flood, is a type pointing to a greater reality), or (2) that the "appeal" is the pledge or profession of faith made by the convert at baptism, and it is the content of that pledge (i.e., the convert's embracing of the gospel) to which God responds by applying salvation to that person.

In any case, throughout the letter Peter consistently roots salvation in faith/belief (1:7, 9, 21; 2:6-7) and repentance (1:22; 2:24; 4:2-6; 4:17).

 

[Propadeutic]

If Baptism does not save, why does it matter whether or not its full immersion?

It matters for the same reason it matters how we pray, how we treat other people, how we worship, and how we raise our children. It is a matter of obedience. God has told us how we are to act and what kind of worship He delights in. He doesn't like it when we change the rules (see Levitcus 10:1-3 and Mark 7:6-13 for examples.)

We should obey God, even though it is not our obedience that puts us in right standing before Him.

 

[ShirChadash]

If Baptism does not save, why does it matter whether or not its full immersion?

Question from an onlooker, in light of above question...

Was Yeshua immersed or sprinkled?

 

[Bulldog]

If Baptism does not save, why does it matter whether or not its full immersion?

The Lord's Supper doesn't save either, but it's good to use bread instead of lasagna, no?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Question from an onlooker, in light of above question...

Was Yeshua immersed or sprinkled?

He was dunked!
GEL

 

[ShirChadash]

He was dunked!
GEL

Thankie GEL

And the reason I asked is probably obvious -- it seems perfectly reasonable to me that people who are mainly concerned with following the example of Yeshua in all things possible (in every situation in which His behavior was example to us, as HIS followers), those people would immerse... as He Himself immersed.

Just as another poster stated above,

This requirement to participate in "believer's baptism", as taught by Baptists, is because a true Christian should obey God's Word to the best of their ability, and there is generally no reason or excuse to refuse believer's baptism.

this seems to me also to be the reasoning behind immersion rather than sprinkling -- and when remotely able to do so, one does well to imitate the Messiah's example as closely as possible... no?

ps, I of course knew He immersed, but was quietly trying to make a point.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Not only doing the example of what HE did but it symbolizes his death burial and ressurection. That is why it is unscriptual to sprinkle. It doesn't symbolize anything biblical. I am curious to how and when the sprinking thing came into some churches.
HMMMMMMMMMMMM
GEL.

 

[Crazy Liz]

The biblical precedent for "re-baptizing"–or more properly, baptizing biblically for the first time–is in Acts 19. Paul encounters some Ephesians who had been baptized, but who had not embraced the gospel of Christ or heard of the Holy Spirit. They knew only the "baptism of John." After Paul set them straight, he baptized them again. The Holy Spirit endorsed this move by filling the Ephesians at that moment. It is evident from this passage that people who were baptized before having a genuine conversion experience–whether they were infants or adults at the time–need to be baptized biblically after their true conversion.

Does that mean that those who believe but are not properly baptized do not receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[Crazy Liz]

The Lord's Supper doesn't save either, but it's good to use bread instead of lasagna, no?

But what if one or the other is fermented or not fermented?

 

[Koey]

There is no biblical evidence that Jesus was immersed. Mat 3:16 gives a hint, but does not "prove" that he was immersed. As one scholar pointed out, that phrase "went up immediately from [or out of] the water" could also equally describe someone who stood in the water to be sprinkled or poured upon, but never actually went under.

 

[Andyman_1970]

There is no biblical evidence that Jesus was immersed.

The historical and cultural evidence would suggest He was immersed, but He immersed Himself.

 

[Iollain]

The New American Bible was translated mostl;y by Catholics and a few Protestants. It has interpretation in it...meaning it is not a word for word translation of the Greek. The NASB is a word for word translation.
1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits {now} in prison,1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Not the removal of dirt from the flesh - ie - not the water
The baptism that 'saves' is the washing of regeneration done by the Holy spirit that removes our sin and makes us new creatures.

I don't know if this verse was mentioned, but it supports the verse that was posted here:

Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

 

[FreeinChrist]

Mat 3:5

Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan;
Mat 3:6 and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mat 3:13 Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan {coming} to John, to be baptized by him.Mat 3:14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit {it} at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he *permitted Him.Mat 3:16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove {and} lighting on Him,Mat 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Jhn 1:25 They asked him, and said to him, "Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"Jhn 1:26 John answered them saying, "I baptize in water, {but} among you stands One whom you do not know.

I added the bold. I believe the text shows that Jesus was baptized by John, a prophet of God.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I don't know if this verse was mentioned, but it supports the verse that was posted here:

Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

Yes, it does. Paul is using 'washing of water' metaphorically to show spiritual cleansing.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I added the bold. I believe the text shows that Jesus was baptized by John, a prophet of God.

What is that word "by" in the Greek, and the definitions for it. I would argue that the historical and cultural evidence we have for the Jewish mikvah would indicate Jesus immersed Himself and John the Baptist was witness to it, which was the Jewish tradition for mikvah.

If John was preaching a mikvah of repentance, why did Jesus partake in it? He had nothing to repent of? (Hint Ex 29:4, and Heb 8:6)

 

[FreeinChrist]

What is that word "by" in the Greek, and the definitions for it. I would argue that the historical and cultural evidence we have for the Jewish mikvah would indicate Jesus immersed Himself and John the Baptist was witness to it, which was the Jewish tradition for mikvah.

If John was preaching a mikvah of repentance, why did Jesus partake in it? He had nothing to repent of? (Hint Ex 29:4, and Heb 8:6)

KJV has it:
Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

The Greek word for the 'of' in that verse is en and can be translated as in, on, or by.

John 'baptized'...so if people baptized themselves, how did John baptize?

KJV
Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
The Greek word for 'of' in this verse is hupo - a propostion meaning 'under'. Is used in Kione Greek to show subjection under a person. In being baptized by John, Jesus willing subjected Himself to John.

Why? Jesus said " it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness".
I believe Jesus was setting an example for us to follow.
He had nothing to repent of, but we do.
Why did Jesus do this?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I agree with you Free.
I wanted point out that John did not feel worthy to Baptism Jesus.
Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
He was like....Jesus.........I cannot baptize YOU, you need to baptize me!
Then Jesus said
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

 

[Andyman_1970]

In being baptized by John, Jesus willing subjected Himself to John.

I would disagree that Jesus was immersed by John, John was witness to it.

John the Baptist was a Rabbi with authority (or in the Hebrew S'mikah), we know this because John had disciples and not students (there is a difference).

Jesus had disciples which confirms that he was a Rabbi (and had S'mikah). In the 1st century there were two kinds of Rabbi’s. One was a Torah teacher, they got their authority to teach from the community and their teaching had to be in “agreement” with that of the community, they couldn’t come up with new interpretations of the Text. A Torah Teacher is kind of like a pastor at a major denomination today, they can’t (without major problems) teach anything that is outside that denominations “statement of faith”.

The other kind of Rabbi was a Rabbi with S’mikah. S’mikah meant authority, and as such this kind of Rabbi had the authority to teach new interpretations of the Scriptures (like Jesus teaching what are the most important commandments). A Rabbi with S’mikah had the entire OT (Genesis to Malichi) memorized. In the 1st century there are only about 10-12 Rabbi’s with S’mikah. Typically out of about 10,000 Rabbi students and disciples, only about 1 would go on to become a Rabbi with S’mikah, in instruction and training was that difficult. Rabbi's with S'mikah in the 1st century would also preform miracles, this is why we see people not being "too impressed" when Jesus would heal people and such.

So, how did a Rabbi get his S'mikah? Two Rabbi's that had S'mikah had to lay hands upon you for you to get it per Jewish Law. Who "gave" Jesus His S'mikah? First, John the Baptist as he had S'mikah, and second (but not least of all) God. What happened when Jesus came up out of the water?

How old was Jesus when He got baptized? In the 1st century a student/disciple would from the age of 15-30 train under that Rabbi (which I believe Jesus did). At the age of 30 the student / disciple would then (if they had their Rabbi's blessing) start their own ministry so to speak, they would go be a Rabbi. Age 30, does that sound familiar?

I believe Jesus was setting an example for us to follow.

What was/is Jesus according to the passage in Hebrews (Hebrews 8:6) I referenced? A preist, our High Preist. According to Jewish tradition, what was one of the cerimonies a preist had to go through before accepting his preistly duties??? Exodus 29:4. See the connection?

We tend to insert our own Greek thinking meanings for why Jesus did certain things. When I believe we have the answers for them all in the Scriptures if we will just look for them. I also believe that the cultural and historical evidence can be used to give us insight as to the background of the things Jesus did.