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The truth about Noah's ark

miamited

Ted
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Hi willtor,

Just some items for your consideration, do with them what you will:

For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

... if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

The first is recorded in both Matthew and Luke. Is it really your position that these writers were telling people that the day of the end is going to be mythical just as the flood was?

The second is Peter. Your heart honestly convicts you that Peter was warning people of God's wrath based on a myth that really didn't happen? A mythical man named Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and his family of seven?

It is your studied position that these words are recounting a myth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Willtor

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(emphasis mine)

There are many historical narratives that we all believe are true and non-factual. Genesis might be this way, too. I contend that it is.
 
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Willtor

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It depends on the ancient and the school of interpretation. I have only scratched the surface on Josephus' writings, so I can't respond to that -- if you've read more of his work, I'm happy to concede the point for the purposes of this discussion.

For the rest of my post, let me argue the more general position of "figurative" as opposed to "mythological" which is more specific. The reason is that I agree with you that nobody I know of from the New Testament era (or for the first few centuries) took it mythologically. But if I just go with that, I feel like I'm dodging the underlying question. So, let me take up "figurative-ism" in general.

The fundamental objection I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) in your post is that there were no ancients who took Genesis for its figurative meaning (as opposed to, and not in addition to, its literal meaning)? It's worth reading people who were coming out of the Alexandrian school, which tended to prefer figurative interpretations. St. Athanasius is probably one of my biggest influences in how I interpret Genesis. He has a couple of books, "Against the Gentiles," and "On the Incarnation of the Word," that are especially compelling. Pre-Christian, a good resource is Philo of Alexandria. He's right in the New Testament era (shortly before Josephus).

The picture I have of the Church of the first few centuries (with respect to its take on Genesis) is that there were two main schools of thought: Alexandria and Antioch. Antioch tended to be heavily literal, where Alexandria tended to be heavily figurative. If you read fathers from the Antioch tradition, you'll find a heavy emphasis on literalism. If you read fathers from the Alexandrian tradition, it's the opposite. As far as I can tell, literalism was bigger, but there wasn't anything like a consensus.

---

To your other point about references (especially mixed references): The difficulty with simple references to the specific people is that it doesn't favor one interpretation over the other. I'll make an example:

I say, "Poor people are lazy -- let them get a job if they want to eat!" You respond, "Remember Lazarus, who was poor but was taken into the bosom of Abraham. How well did the rich man, who ignored him, fare? Or do you think less of St. Francis of Assisi for his poverty?" I can't very well say that you think that the rich man and Lazarus were historical people -- nor that you think St. Francis was not.

There are ways (some clearer than others) for one to determine whether a person has taken a text literally: In the simplest case, the person tells us his method of interpretation. Another way is where someone does a specific textual analysis that treats the passage purely for its historic value to the exclusion of figurative application, or vice-versa. Most people actually do a bit of both (even those who have expressly stated how they take the passage).

But it's useful to think of the other view as a sort of null hypothesis. Ask whether someone who takes the passage the other way would not do this thing.

I don't mean to argue that there were not many people who took it as an historical event -- probably many people who took it figuratively did that! That's a much more subtle point, and more clearly made with Adam than with Noah. If you agree, I won't go into it because I think it will derail the thread. Otherwise, push me on it.
 
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Willtor

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Amen.


Re: the Ark: This is a misunderstanding of the text. This is part of the larger story of the Fall, and how culling merely forestalls the inevitable degradation of the race. Of course, there's a lot more to it, but it isn't an historical account as The First World War is an historical account.


As you say, (and as I've said) I'm not especially wise, but that really isn't the point. I feel that every time you delve into whether I am wise or you are wise or whether one of us has taken courses in logic, it detracts from the discussion at hand. Of course, it's your thread. But why not limit ourselves to the thing, itself? We haven't even _begun_ to get into the core -- what, exactly, are our interpretations are and why! I strongly feel that a conversation that deals more with that, than with who is or is not wise or blind or experienced or reads the Bible with great frequency, is a more fruitful conversation.
 
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miamited

Ted
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Good morning willtor,

I read your reply. I digested what you've written. I reject it as truth. I do appreciate your participation in my thread and expect, although I don't really know you, that you are a pretty good person who sincerely believes that he holds the truth. I hope that you will appreciate that I feel exactly like you do about what I believe.

What I know is that there is a place where one, if he lacks wisdom, can go to gain it. What I do know is that since both of our understandings cannot co-exist, at least one of us should go there. I'm going.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.
 
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miamited

Ted
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I strongly feel that a conversation that deals more with that, than with who is or is not wise or blind or experienced or reads the Bible with great frequency, is a more fruitful conversation.

Hi again willtor,

I understand how you feel and know that you believe that what you feel is the truth, but is it? Poor Pilate doesn't get nearly enough credit for his very, very wise question of Jesus. What is truth? The answer to that simple question and the understanding thereof is the fulcrum upon which a man's soul rests.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted
 
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Willtor

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I don't agree with you, not because I am not open to the possibility that I might be wrong, but because you have not addressed my objections. This is different from not being open to the possibility. If I were not open to the possibility, then it wouldn't matter what your arguments were -- I would reject them. Likewise, you say you are not open to the possibility that you may be wrong? Then it doesn't matter how sound my arguments are -- you will reject them.

I'm guessing that you don't see that your position is exactly the same.

It isn't. Where you answered no, I answered yes. But it's hard to respond to someone's objections if no response can satisfy.


If I had said no, what value would there have been in presenting your evidence? One who says no will not change his mind no matter what evidence is presented. That isn't me. As I said before, one who loves the truth must necessarily be open to the possibility of his own wrongness.

That said, because I've said yes, I'm willing to hear your evidence and consider it, if you're willing to provide it. Additionally, I will provide rebuttals that consist of more than, "I've considered it and soundly rejected it as truth." On the contrary, I will provide the analysis I use to reach that conclusion (if that is the conclusion I reach).
 
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Willtor

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(emphasis mine)

Yes. John calls Jesus the "logos" of God, as opposed to "ethos", and it is wrong for us to rely on ethos to try to make our cases. If God put aside His greatness to speak to us, surely we can do the same for one another. Likewise, as Paul put aside his own credentials when he argued for what he believed, so we should do the same. This is entirely predicated on the idea that the truth stands on its own without our own qualities. As Barth said, "The best theology would need no advocates." So let us avoid what we think of ourselves and not concern ourselves with anything of the other. Let us simply discuss our reasons for interpreting things using the methods we do.

Logos.
 
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miamited

Ted
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Hi willtor,

Yes, but was Barth right? It would seem that the theology of christianity teaches that we do have an advocate. Maybe Barth isn't right. One of the things I always do when people approach me with supposedly wise sayings of others, is ask the simple question: Is what they're saying true?

I know they sound wise tripping off the tongue and across the lips when we say them. I know that they give a certain tickling to our ears, but I've learned to set those emotions aside and stick strictly with trying to understand whether a particularly wise little ditty is the truth. What do you suppose that Barth meant when he said that? What exactly does it mean to say that the best theology needs no advocate.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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ChetSinger

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I find Josephus useful because he's not a religious writer or a philosopher. He's simply a historian. By reading his writings we can learn what the Jews were being taught concerning their own origins.

I took the opportunity to read some Athanasius' writings concerning Genesis. I didn't read much, but I got the impression he considered Adam to be an actual person as opposed to a philosophical construct.

I think the NT is clear enough when it's speaks of figurative people: it labels their stories as parables.

And I believe even Augustine, who loved drawing additional meanings from the scriptures, believed that Adam was an actual man, especially in his later writings.

Myself, I think the desire to see these OT people as figurative isn't driven from the text or from ancient traditions. I think it's driven by some modern Christians who believe they have no alternative but to do so. If it works for their faith, then that's cool I guess. But I don't think it's necessary.
 
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Willtor

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He was saying that the truth is the truth, independent of who supports it. The truth is inherently defensible because it is true, and that position x has you as an advocate and that position y has me as an advocate doesn't enter into it. Let me repost what led up to (and culminated in) that quote:

---

John calls Jesus the "logos" of God, as opposed to "ethos", and it is wrong for us to rely on ethos to try to make our cases. If God put aside His greatness to speak to us, surely we can do the same for one another. Likewise, as Paul put aside his own credentials when he argued for what he believed, so we should do the same. This is entirely predicated on the idea that the truth stands on its own without our own qualities.

---

This is a call to intellectual honesty. You don't know what my credentials are: maybe I work retail, or maybe I'm a VP in a Fortune 500 company, or maybe I'm a theologian, or maybe I'm a scientist, or maybe I'm unemployed. Similarly, maybe I read the Bible daily, or maybe I read it monthly, or maybe I don't remember the last time I read it. Again, maybe I have written a best-selling book on the cultural context of Genesis, or maybe I write articles along those lines for a respected journal, or maybe I've written a series of blog posts, or maybe this is the first I've talked about it.

You don't know.

And if, indeed, the truth really is the foundation for everything, none of these things matter to this discussion (they matters, of course, but not to this discussion). Who I am is irrelevant. Who you are is irrelevant. Only your integrity and honesty in bringing forth a defense of your position and in your evaluation of mine. Forget ethos. Let's talk about the flood and not puff ourselves up or denigrate the other.
 
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Ted
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Good morning willtor,

Sure. I agree wholeheartedly with that, but that doesn't give any help when two people hold contradictory understandings of what the 'truth' is, in determining which one actually holds to the truth. Absolutely the truth stands on it's own merits because it is the truth. It is the factual accounting of some real time, real life accounting of an event or concept. While you are correct that the one who holds positilon x and the one who holds position y have no bearing on what the truth is, if we want to believe and hold to the truth, then we must determine whether position x or position y is the truth. This is the task set before juries every day. And, as a believer, it is also the task set before us in gaining knowledge and understanding about this God who has revealed Himself to us and wants us to know the truth.

---


Right, but none of that is really any confirmation that you know the truth. Consider Nicodemus. A pharisee of the Jews. A member of the highest order of the ruling body in Israel in his day. A man respected and revered as someone who knows God. People looked to him for wisdom and understanding of the things of their God. It is believed that most of their lot could recite portions of the Scriptures backwards. It is also believed that to get to the position that he held that it required years of study under someone else who had already achieved such similar high degree of knowledge about God. It was not a position to be taken lightly by the one attaining it and was not given lightly by those who bestowed it.

They would often walk along the streets condemning others for having broken some law of God. They were called to counsel to decide and determine how things should be done as God would want them done. They were all studied and religious men who were assumed by the people of being something similar to the pope of catholicism today. They were, to the people, the very voice of God in their determinations and findings.

Yet Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and rebuked him for the very issue of his being a teacher over all of Israel and not understanding the truth. So, yes, we cannot place any trust in man to necessarily know the truth. But, the truth is there. There is truth.


Well, I suppose one could certainly say that. Surely you have. But I hold truth in slightly higher regard. It does matter whether one speaks the truth or not. Especially in the things of God. All liars, according to the Scriptures, will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So, yes, let's get back to the discussion at hand. You hold position x. I hold position y. They are contradictory in their nature. One holding that a particular account is a myth, albeit by your definition, a 'true' myth. The other holding that the account of the event is a real event that happened on a day, at a time, on the earth. You are attempting to teach me that your understanding is correct and I, likewise, am attempting to teach you that my understanding is correct. That makes us both teachers of the truth of God's word. If I say to someone, "This is the truth", and it is not, then I am speaking a lie. Now, maybe I'm uncomfortable with admitting to myself that it's something as grossly wrong as a lie, but nevertheless it is.

God has told us that he did something. He has laid out a fairly complete account of the time in which He did it. He has given us a reasonably detailed account of what He did. He has even gone so far as to explain to us the reason for which He did it. I say He did actually do the things that He tells us that He did. You say, no, He's telling us a myth from which we should glean some better or greater understanding of some human issue.

If God did it, and one teaches that He didn't, then that teaching is a lie. If God did it, and one teaches that He did, then that teaching is the truth. So, I have some understanding of your position, but I honestly don't think that you're quite understanding the importance of whether those who claim to teach the things of God are telling the truth or not.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Willtor

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Great! St. Athanasius is a boss, and you will benefit from every page he writes. I'll talk about him and then Josephus.

You are absolutely right in saying he didn't think that Adam was a philosophical construct. He certainly thought there was a first man. However, he didn't think that the account of Adam was a literal historical account, or that the events described in the Fall were literal. Here are a couple of quotes to that end:

"... the first of men created, the one who was named Adam in Hebrew, is described in the Holy Scriptures as having at the beginning had his mind to God-ward in a freedom unembarrassed by shame, and as associating with the holy ones in that contemplation of things perceived by the mind which he enjoyed in the place where he was— the place which the holy Moses called in figure a Garden."

Against the Gentiles (Part 1)

"But since the will of man could turn either way, God secured this grace that He had given by making it conditional from the first upon two things-namely, a law and a place. He set them in His own paradise, and laid upon them a single prohibition. If they guarded the grace and retained the loveliness of their original innocence, then the life of paradise should be theirs, without sorrow, pain or care, and after it the assurance of immortality in heaven. But if they went astray and became vile, throwing away their birthright of beauty, then they would come under the natural law of death and live no longer in paradise, but, dying outside of it, continue in death and in corruption. This is what Holy Scripture tells us, proclaiming the command of God, "Of every tree that is in the garden thou shalt surely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ye shall not eat, but in the day that ye do eat, ye shall surely die." (Gen. 2. 16 f) " Ye shall surely die"-not just die only, but remain in the state of death and of corruption."

On the Incarnation of the Word (1.3)

Read the whole books, of course, even if you decide not to agree on this particular point. I almost never use the term, "sublime," but these books are sublime. That aside...

This gets a bit into the aforementioned derailment, but here it is: Everybody among the ancients thought there was a first man. If we put ourselves in their position, we should ask, "how else could it be?" The question is whether a person thinks that the story of Eden is a factual account of that first man, or whether it's figurative (as in the first quote).

One of the things that leads to the dichotomy between authors (especially Jewish authors) is the fact that "Adam" literally means, "The Man." In the first passage I cite, it seems plausible that St. Athanasius was aware of this. After all, if he didn't know it, it's a little bit funny to have him say, "the one who was named Adam in Hebrew," as though the Hebrew-ishness of the name were relevant. No, the name "Adam" is useful in referring to the first man in telling the story.

His whole discussion of the Fall (in both books) is about contemplation, as opposed to performing an action. The trees are figures of the things that God has given them (and us), but contemplation of themselves is prohibited. We might get more into what the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents, specifically, or the Tree of Life. But the point is that it isn't a literal garden (at least from St. Athanasius' perspective), and he spends a great deal of time discussing the nature of the Fall. The first quote, in fact, is one of the few in which he makes explicit reference to the figures in the text, themselves, in relating them to the Fall.

---

I definitely take your point about Josephus and using an historian to think about what was being taught at the time. As I said, I haven't read Josephus (except for his autobiography), but I've read basically everything that is orthodox from the first and early second century that we have. If I take your point about Josephus as expounding upon what was already being taught, however, then it fits into that knowledge in an interesting way:

The Christians (originally a sect of Judaism) suddenly started finding Christ (and references to the Christ as Jesus) _everywhere_ in the Old Testament. Taking passages figuratively basically made the New Testament a direct and logical follow-up on the Old Testament. Finding references to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, figures of Jesus and his suffering, death, and rising, abound. You basically can't find a Church Father from the first or early second century who didn't do this. After the destruction of the temple, as Christianity developed in a direction of increased inclusiveness of Gentiles, I think that there was a backlash that tried to de-emphasize figure. Josephus appears at exactly the right time in history to embody that movement. One side takes Genesis figuratively because it ties everything to Jesus, and the other reacts against it.


They don't always label the parables as parables. The parable of the Good Samaritan and the Great Banquet are examples. We recognize them as parables because we're familiar with that kind of story and we know Jesus (and Rabbis, in general) frequently used parables to make points. Further, we've been told that these were parables by our teachers and everyone we know who has spoken of them. It seems natural that they should be parables. But the text doesn't actually say it. It's an inference we have to make.

And we could be wrong. Maybe Jesus actually knew of a Samaritan who did this thing that he says, and his story was especially useful for the occasion. But we read it figuratively -- we treat it as a parable, although nothing in the text indicates it.
 
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Willtor

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(emphasis mine)

I'm right along with you up until this point. (Obviously, you're right that it matters whether someone speaks the truth -- but I'm more talking about your disagreement, here, with what I had said). You think that status of the speaker means something in whether a thing is the truth. I don't. Since we're in disagreement on this point, you will continue to tout your credentials and I will not tout mine.

The one last thing I will say on this point is that Jesus refused to leverage his identity. So did Paul. You know from your logic classes that in the world of reasoning, arguing from ethos is considered a rhetorical fallacy. It's too much for me to accept otherwise.


Likewise, if God did not do it as written, but provided it as a corrective mythology, saying that he did it as written would be the "lie." Actually, I will adopt the word "falsehood" since "lie" to me implies intent to deceive. I know my own motives, and I won't assume badly about your motives, so I will use "falsehood."

To restate, neither of us holds the "safe" interpretation unless it is the correct one. If the narrative was intended literally, holding a non-literal interpretation is false. If the narrative was not intended literally, holding a literal interpretation is false. Is this agreed?
 
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miamited

Ted
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I honestly don't know where you would have gotten the understanding that I place any value in a person's position as regards knowing the truth of spiritual things. I'm one who tests every word in this regard.


I really don't have a clue what 'arguing from ethos' even means. It was never something that I recall being mentioned in any of my logic classes, but they were 40 years ago. However, in googling it, my answer above should also answer that point.




Yes, that is agreed.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Willtor

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I honestly don't know where you would have gotten the understanding that I place any value in a person's position as regards knowing the truth of spiritual things. I'm one who tests every word in this regard.

That's good to hear. But then I wonder why you bring your credentials, or attack my motives?

I really don't have a clue what 'arguing from ethos' even means. It was never something that I recall being mentioned in any of my logic classes, but they were 40 years ago. However, in googling it, my answer above should also answer that point.

Oh, sorry! Quick overview (and I think you'll find this useful in future discussions with anybody -- not just here):

In Greek, there are 3 words that we can translate as "Word" or "Message" in English: Ethos, Pathos, and Logos. They mean subtly different things, but the differences are clear if you think of the following example. Suppose there is a person on stage who is giving a lecture about a particular subject (it doesn't matter what, here).

Ethos: The lecturer is introduced as "Dr. So-and-so" and he has "a PhD in such-and-such a field." The people in the audience are likely to take him seriously, right or wrong, because of his qualifications. The message he delivers carries weight _because_ he has a doctorate. That is his ethos. People listen because of who he is.

Pathos: He begins his lecture by showing pictures of starving children. The audience is moved, some of them to tears, because of what they see. They heed his words, right or wrong, because he has made them feel strong emotions. Maybe, in another scenario, he has shown them pictures or used words that frighten them ("the terrorists will strike if we don't do x"). This is an argument from pathos. The audience is moved to believe him because he has made them feel.

Logos: The speaker provides a proof of a mathematical theorem and walks the audience through each step, ensuring that most of them are able to follow his logic (the word "logic" even comes from "logos"). The audience believes even though the speaker was only incidental to their becoming convinced of it. He has presented the essence of his message: the "logos."

It's interesting when you see a debate, that the organizers of the debate will generally try to balance the ethos on stage. They will try to get two participants whose voices carry comparable weight in the minds of the audience. This is intended to limit the impact of ethos on the debate. Nevertheless, in debates of lesser quality, one participant will try to leverage his or her position versus the other. People who are aware of this sort of thing, no matter whose position they tend to agree with, will think less of the participant that does this.

There are exceptions, of course, like if only one of the participants is a mathematician, and the question of a particular math problem comes up, and that person says, "I am a mathematician -- this problem we are discussing is an open problem in math, but the answer is generally believed to be x." But this is why good debate organizers will try to find opponents of roughly equivalent credentials. They don't want that situation to arise! It is hard for the audience because they are, here, not being swayed by reason but by status.

Most of the same goes for pathos. People who are aware of such things don't like to hear pathos being used to persuade -- useful for motivating people who are already persuaded, but not for persuasion, itself. Again, there are always exceptions, but when we hear people doing this, we should be on guard even if we are predisposed to agree with them.

---

So, this is all I mean when I say, "arguing from ethos." If you tell me about how faithful you are, or how many times you have read the Bible, or if you say that I believe what I believe so I can hold my head high as a Christian, you can persuade only people who don't know how to differentiate reason from fallacy. You don't know whether I am equally faithful, or if I have read the Bible as many times as you. You don't know my motives or whether I even live in a place where being a Christian bestows social status. Making arguments of these kinds bolsters your position among certain people, but you do those people a disservice.

Instead, it would be better for us to limit the range of our arguments to those that have reason as a basis.

Yes, that is agreed.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Boom!
 
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Ted
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That's good to hear. But then I wonder why you bring your credentials, or attack my motives?

Hi willtor,

Are you referring to when I say things like, "I've read the Scriptures for some time and this is what I belive it says...". I think it always a good idea for one to let it be known 'where' their information came from. If you don't, that's fine.


It seems to me that what you are really discussing is 'debate' and not 'logic'. Logic really has nothing to do with where one gets information, but deals with the idea of 'how' to determine if something is or isn't a logical process that leads to a logical conclusion. Debate is the art of discussing a position and providing evidence in support of a position. While debate does caution that we shouldn't be swayed by a lot of qualifiers to a person's understanding of a position based solely on their 'qualifications', but rather try to stick just to the evidence regarding the position.


Does that mean that you feel you have gained some sort of victory that I have agreed with you that one of two contradictory positions must be false? I think that's been my point throughout this discussion.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Calminian

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There's actually a show airing on one of the cable channels in recent days, I think History, which is about ancient super-ships. There's one ancient greek ship that was the size of an aircraft carrier. It could transport several legions (or troops) of solders and actually had to be propelled by manpower. That seems a whole lot harder to build than a ship that just needed to float for a year.

The real issue is presuppositions. Modern scientists can't believe that ancient man was actually genetically superior to them, and therefore they are shocked when they find things that seem above the pay-grade of cavemen.
 
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Willtor

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I'm referring more to the comments that are intended to reflect upon our persons more than the topic. Of course, citing sources is always good.


"Logic" as I say, comes from the word "logos." My point is that we ought to stick more to that than to these other factors.

Does that mean that you feel you have gained some sort of victory that I have agreed with you that one of two contradictory positions must be false? I think that's been my point throughout this discussion.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

No, it's just a happy sound of agreement.
 
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This is a contradictory position to the one being discussed -- whether the ark floated by supernatural means. I'm not sure the assumption you attribute to modern scientists is relevant. Do you think the ark floated by natural means?
 
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