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The true foundation for a belief in a young earth

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Vance

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The primary foundation for a young earth is not really the literal six days of creation, but the genealogies. Were it not the for the genealogies, that "six days" could have been a hundred thousand years ago as far as YEC’s are concerned. So, a look at the genealogies is a good idea. Here is a link which, even though I don’t necessarily agree with all of its theological conclusions, does provide an analysis from a Christian Biblical Scholar regarding whether the genealogies can be accurately used to establish the age of the earth, even if read literally:

http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/appendix_genealogies.htm

Here is a quote:


"On these various grounds we conclude that the Scriptures furnish no data for a chronological computation prior to the life of Abraham, and that the Mosaic records do not fix and were not intended to fix the precise date either of the Flood or the creation of the world." Thus the purpose of the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 seems to be more to show the effect of sin on the human vitality and longevity rather than to establish chronology. In the formula discussed above, B could be the literal son of a distant descendant, and the age of A may be his age at the birth of the child from whom B was descended. This may allow centuries, millenniums, or hundreds of thousands of years to intervene between A and B.

The proponents of a recent creation have revised their date of creation back to 10,000 BC or so because of these arguments [the arguments referred to are those which allow for expansion of the genealogy]. However, they will not make any further concession, for this would introduce too large a gap into the genealogies. However, it is entirely personal preference and not based on any exegetical data."

Here is another quote:

"After Ussher and before real modern times, all conservatives were in agreement his dates, until the 1890's when William Henry Green wrote in Bibliotheca Sacra his article entitled, "Primeval Chronology," and took Ussher to task. B. B. Warfield later did the same in the Princeton Theological Review (1911). He discredited Ussher's method by proving the existence of gaps in the genealogical records of Genesis (which we will see shortly). Then until about the 1950's virtually no one in the evangelical world took Ussher seriously. But the recent creation/evolution debate has witnessed the resurrection of Ussher. Many conservatives began to equate the belief in a young earth with Ussher's dates, so much so that a 6000 year old earth became (and largely remains) the fundamentalist position. Anything from 6005 B.C. back to billions of years is often considered an evolutionary idea."

This is from here: www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/miscstudies/chronology.htm

Again, this is not necessarily my viewpoint, but for those who like to read these things literally, it is something to consider about a dogmatic belief in a young earth.
 

California Tim

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Vance said:
The primary foundation for a young earth is not really the literal six days of creation, but the genealogies.
I will speak for myself here. The geneaologies lend credible support to the literal translation, but other factors also contribute to my acceptance of Adam as a literal historical figure - not the least of which is reference to him as historical by Christ and Paul. So the geneaologies, while nice in that they lend additional credibility to the literal interpretation, are hardly a requirement to accept the historical narrative style of the Genesis creation account.
 
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Vance

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California Tim said:
I will speak for myself here. The geneaologies lend credible support to the literal translation, but other factors also contribute to my acceptance of Adam as a literal historical figure - not the least of which is reference to him as historical by Christ and Paul. So the geneaologies, while nice in that they lend additional credibility to the literal interpretation, are hardly a requirement to accept the historical narrative style of the Genesis creation account.

No, I am talking about the age of the earth specifically. Were it not for the genealogies, you would accept that your literal Adam could have existed at any time, correct?
 
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Vance

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Didaskomenos said:
^_^ ^_^ ^_^ (oh . . . *ahem*)

So there, Vance! That should take care of that! :doh:

Yes I guess I'm done . . .

No, not really. :)

My point is whether the genealogies are the sole Biblical reason for the young age of the Earth. To date, I have not heard any other Biblical basis for it. If there IS no other basis in the Bible for dating the Earth, then these genealogies become very important to analyze and consider, as in the OP.
 
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Vance

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No, you don't dismiss anything in Scripture. Why do you keep saying such things when you KNOW that is not what is being said, or has ever been said? Really, Twincrier, this is not just strawman tactics, this is getting to the point of outright deceit. I have spoken on this very forum with some YEC's who think that is OK to exagerrate or even present evidence in a misleading way if it will further the YEC cause, but I never took you for that type of person.
 
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TwinCrier

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I'm just trying to figure out what you expect me to do about those family trees of Christ listed in the gospels then. They appear to trace the lineage of Jesus bac to Adam, but then, you know how stupid I am believing in a young earth, so I need your wisdom to educate me and tell me what this all means.
 
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Vance

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If Adam if a figurative symbol for "Mankind" and the concept that Mankind "fell" and is in need of redemption, then the inclusion of the genealogy back to Adam could be to show that Jesus is taking upon that inheritance symbolically, while still never personally experiencing sin, in order to overcome the "fall".

But the point is that you make false statements like TE's are proposing that we "dismiss Scripture" after being told that this is NOT our position. So, you KNOW we don't believe that Scripture can be discarded, then you SAY that this is what we are presenting. Tell me, how is this NOT lying?
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
Yes I guess I'm done . . .

No, not really. :)

My point is whether the genealogies are the sole Biblical reason for the young age of the Earth. To date, I have not heard any other Biblical basis for it. If there IS no other basis in the Bible for dating the Earth, then these genealogies become very important to analyze and consider, as in the OP.
To be more specific then: Yes the geneaologies date the creation of Adam and thus the approximate age of the earth.
 
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Vance

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California Tim said:
To be more specific then: Yes the geneaologies date the creation of Adam and thus the approximate age of the earth.

OK, then, so the issue of the genealogies becomes the core of the "age of the earth" issue, and so obviously relevant. In your second post, you were discussing why the genealogies were not crucial to literalism. But they ARE crucial to the age of the earth, thus the OP which, so far, no one has commented on.
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
OK, then, so the issue of the genealogies becomes the core of the "age of the earth" issue, and so obviously relevant. In your second post, you were discussing why the genealogies were not crucial to literalism. But they ARE crucial to the age of the earth, thus the OP which, so far, no one has commented on.
I do not disagree with the text you pasted in the OP. I've already been there for some time. The geneaologies are not precise measurements and I have long since understood this. It is why I do not get tangled up in the pyramid - flood debates. I simply don't see a problem. The flood came first and the original attempts to date the earth by precise geneaologies was likely off by many thousands (not millions or billions) of years. This is even more likely when the average lifespan of the early man was in the hundreds of years.
 
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owen_rocks

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Vance said:
But they ARE crucial to the age of the earth, thus the OP which, so far, no one has commented on.

I agree that the geneologies are the basis for viewing the earth as young. I also
agree that the geneologies can be shown to be incomplete and have gaps. So I
would say it is impossible to date the creation of the world. It could be 6000 or 6 billion
years old.

This may allow for an older earth than 6,000 years, but still doesn't do
much in reconciling the bible with science. A YEC turned "non young earth"
would still believe man was created on day 6 of creation week, and the sun/moon
stars were created on day 4. Thus, if the earth is 3 billion years old...Adam
lived 3 billion years ago...the universe is younger than the earth..and so forth.

regards,
o/r
 
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Vance

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owen_rocks said:
I agree that the geneologies are the basis for viewing the earth as young. I also
agree that the geneologies can be shown to be incomplete and have gaps. So I
would say it is impossible to date the creation of the world. It could be 6000 or 6 billion
years old.

This may allow for an older earth than 6,000 years, but still doesn't do
much in reconciling the bible with science. A YEC turned "non young earth"
would still believe man was created on day 6 of creation week, and the sun/moon
stars were created on day 4. Thus, if the earth is 3 billion years old...Adam
lived 3 billion years ago...the universe is younger than the earth..and so forth.

regards,
o/r

Oh, I agree completely. But I think that the belief that the earth is young is the most damaging part of YEC'ism to Christianity. Christians who accept that the earth is old, but just think God created progressively over time (as the Day-Age or Progressive Creationists believe) or that evolutionary development occurred, but don't accept naturalistic explanations, insisting that God managed this development "hands-on" (like the ID theorists believe) are not the problem, since these are not in dramatic contrast with the evidence we have from God's Creation itself.

It is Christians proclaiming that the earth is only thousands of years old and that a global flood occured within that time frame that is damaging to the message of the Gospel.
 
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TwinCrier

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Here goes Vance with his "YEC is damaging to Christianity" claim. Christianity has servived over two thousand years without reliance on evolution, I think it can survive til the end of the world without it as well. If you have one foot in the bible and one foot in the world you're bound to hurt your [EDITED].
You'll have to use your imagination.
 
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Vance

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TwinCrier said:
Here goes Vance with his "YEC is damaging to Christianity" claim. Christianity has servived over two thousand years without reliance on evolution, I think it can survive til the end of the world without it as well. If you have one foot in the bible and one foot in the world you're bound to hurt your gonads.

And there you go with your strawmen again. Who said anything about Christianity needing evolution to survive? How is that even a part of the discussion? Really, I can't tell when you are just sadly missing the point being made (as simple as it might be) or are intentionally mistating the point (which would be lying). On the one hand, you get in a tizzy when you think we are questioning your intelligence, but when we assume your intelligence (meaning you would get what we are saying), then we are only let with the result that you are telling falsehoods. I am not sure which result you want us to reach.

No, I am talking about how teaching that an old earth is contrary to Scripture as dogmatic truth (as you do) is damaing to Christianity. And this is documented fact. In these very forums, we have seen many testimonies from those whose faith was lost over these very teachings. I have counseled more than a few youths who face a similar crisis of faith due to this teaching as well. St. Augustine recognized this danger even in 400 AD.
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
It is Christians proclaiming that the earth is only thousands of years old and that a global flood occured within that time frame that is damaging to the message of the Gospel.
Unless of course it actually happened, which I am sure would make you among the most surprised if not humiliated. ;)
 
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Vance

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California Tim said:
Unless of course it actually happened, which I am sure would make you among the most surprised if not humiliated. ;)

Oh, no, it is STILL damaging even if it is true. It can still definitely be a stumbling block, and an unecessary one since it is not a salvation issue. There is simply no good reason to teach a young earth dogmatically, as an either/or issue (earth is young or Bible incorrect), and TONS of reasons NOT to teach it dogmatically.

So, why do it?

James and Paul both spoke out against placing unecessary stumbling blocks in the path of the Gospel, and this is exactly what an either/or teaching of a young earth is.
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
Oh, no, it is STILL damaging even if it is true. It can still definitely be a stumbling block, and an unecessary one since it is not a salvation issue. There is simply no good reason to teach a young earth dogmatically, as an either/or issue (earth is young or Bible incorrect), and TONS of reasons NOT to teach it dogmatically.

So, why do it?

James and Paul both spoke out against placing unecessary stumbling blocks in the path of the Gospel, and this is exactly what an either/or teaching of a young earth is.
First of all, in this forum we do not "teach" it. We are defending a point of view. Big difference. If you are worried that I go around with a gospel tract and while holding it out for the recipient I pull back and firmly state -- "But you must ALSO believe in a young earth to be saved..." you may rest easy because it is not a witnessing tool one way or the other. I happen to believe in YEC and am happy to justify it when asked or challenged. You do, however continually seem to imply that literal belief in the creation account is damaging, when I can assure you (although I don't harp on it it post after post like the TE'ers do) that I feel equally concerned that offhand dismissal of the possiblity of literalness whenever a difficult passage is read is damaging for a host of reasons. I simply do not feel the declaration of such an issue raises the bar or encourages honest discussion about these issues, but instead drives a wedge of division and dissension between brothers and sisters.
 
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