The True Believers of the Last Days

[Henaynei]

Greetings,

The 613 are based on the Torah but are the Rabbinical understanding of how these laws or instructions were best carried out and what the point was. For example

Deut 13 : [snip]To me the point is to judiciously deal with anyone who tries to lead you away from God and into Idolatry. But the codified Rabbinical version actually directs this at Christian Missonaries.

You have just made (your own) halakah - what qualifies you to do that more than 5000 years of Torah scholars who spent their lives dedicated entirely to studying and knowing, G-d and His word, as well as building on and honoring the wisdom of the learned righteous fathers of the centuries before??

[snip]
I am not saying they are wrong or evil. Just that the intent of God may have been taken too far because of the hedges that were added to prevent an accidental breaking of the law.

I'm not saying (you) are wrong or evil. Just that the intent of G-d may (not) have been taken (to the full meaning) because of (christian and pagan theologies that have subtracted) hedges that were added to prevent (historically proven tendencies that lead to the) accidental breaking of the law.

Some of the recommentdations might be beneficial, however the 613 is just the tip of the iceberg as you know. There are many additional laws from the oral torah. These Yeshua did not consider binding or advantageous.

Charles in Florida

The 613 come directly from scripture and ARE Torah.

Yes, there are many more which ARE Oral Torah, AND Yeshua kept the overwhelming majority of them and only re-stated or corrected an infintessimal small number of them. And Yeshua himself instructed us to obey the halakic decisions of the P'rushim and Sofrim:

Mattityahu 23:1-3 ​

Then spoke Yeshua to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, ​

"The Sofrim and P'rushim sit in Moses' seat (have halakic authority): ​

All therefore they bid you observe, that observe and do; ​

but do not after their works: for they say, and do not."​

For the purposes of this discussion it is granted that it was to His Jewish followers, for He had no non-jewish followers, to whom He was adddressing this instruction.​

 

[Higher Truth]

HT stated earlier:

4] Were women and men of Jew and gentile heritage gathered together in the upper room at pentecost?

Charles stated:

HT,

It seems to me that you re-worded your question. You asked if the men and women in the upper room were a mixture of Jew and Gentile.

"Were women and men of Jew and gentile heritage gathered together in the upper room at pentecost?"

After I answered what seemed to be your question you changed it to an issue of men and woman being gathered together:

"There were 120 people there in that room, men and women mixed. How did men and women worship in the temple?"

HT:

Actually my first question had multiple parts.

1] were men and women

2] Jews and non-Jews

In the upper room worshipping together.Scripture tells us that there were men and women mixed, and it doesn't say that it was only Jews. I was posting this is response to them being Torah Observant. In the temple, were not men and women separate? Did Paul not get beaten, because of a rumor that he had brought a non-Jew into the temple and defiled it?

 

[Henaynei]

HT:

Actually my first question had multiple parts.

1] were men and women

2] Jews and non-Jews

In the upper room worshipping together.Scripture tells us that there were men and women mixed, and it doesn't say that it was only Jews. I was posting this is response to them being Torah Observant. In the temple, were not men and women separate? Did Paul not get beaten, because of a rumor that he had brought a non-Jew into the temple and defiled it?

1) yes there were men and women - this was a specific group and had nothing to do with Temple worship. As with many things in the Ketuvim Natzrim, it does not specify that which was assumed tradition because the writers would never have thought such clarification required. While they were together in the "upper room" - it is not to be assumed (by non-Jewish cultural bias) that they were "together" on one group - it does not say "mixed". Such would NOT have been even considered during prayer or scripture study.

2) there were no non-Jewish believers at this time. All of Yeshua's followers were Jews. ("I have come to the lost sheep of Israel") It is true that you may be able to point to (less than five - I can think of only 2) non-Jews that are mentioned in the gospels as having any positive relationship to Yeshua and his followers. There is absolutely no indication or reason to believe that there were any who followed as part of His disciples - until well after His sacrifice and departure.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Partial Quote from Henaynei "You have just make (your own) halakah - what qualifies you to do that more than 5000 years of Torah scholars who spent their lives dedicated entirely to studying and knowing, G-d and His word, as well as building on and honoring the wisdom of the learned righteous fathers of the centuries before??"


I think There are cases where the halacha of those men were not correct. Yes it is true that Yeshua said to do what the Pharisees say. Why? Becasue they sit on Moshes seat. That is they are the teachers of the Torah and the uneducated mans only link to the word of God. And there is the issues of authority and Torah commands respect to a Torah teacher.

But what do we say when the Halacha of Yeshua is different than the Halacha of the Pharisees or Rabbinate? The Rabbis taught to hate the missionaries ect. Yeshua said to love your enemies and do good to them.

Charles in Florida

 

[Higher Truth]

Henaynei:

2) there were no non-Jewish believers at this time. All of Yeshua's followers were Jews. ("I have come to the lost sheep of Israel") It is true that you may be able to point to (less than five - I can think of only 2) non-Jews that are mentioned in the gospels as having any positive relationship to Yeshua and his followers. There is absolutely no indication or reason to believe that there were any who followed as part of His disciples - until well after His sacrifice and departure.


John the Baptist predicted it would happen:

Matthew 3

8 Then bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as father. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham out of these stones.

Luke 3

9 And do not think to say within yourselves, We have a father, Abraham. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Let's take a look at the "lost sheep of Israel " passage:

Matthew 15

21 And going out from there, Jesus withdrew to the parts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan coming forth from those borders cried out to Him, saying, Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is badly demon-possessed.
23 But He did not answer her a word. And coming near, His disciples asked Him, saying, Send her away, for she cries out after us.
24 But answering, He said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 But coming, she worshiped Him, saying, Lord, help me!
26 But answering, He said, It is not good to take the bread of the children to throw it to the little dogs.
27 But she said, Yes, Lord; for even the little dogs eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their lords.
28 Then answering, Jesus said to her, O woman, great is your faith; let it be to you as you desire. And her daughter was healed from that hour.


HT:

We are told that he healed the daughter of a woman from the non Hebrew population because of her faith.


Matthew 8

5 And Jesus, entering into Capernaum, a centurion came near to Him, begging Him,
6 and saying, Lord, my child has been laid in the house, a paralytic, being grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus said to him, I will come and heal him.
8 And answering, the centurion said, Lord, I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof, but only speak a word and my child will be healed.
9 For I am also a man under authority, having soldiers under myself. And I say to this one, Go; and he goes; and to another, Come; and he comes; and to my slave, Do this; and he does it.
10 And hearing, Jesus marveled, and said to those following, Truly I say to you, Not even in Israel did I find such faith.
11 But I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will recline with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven,
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
13 And Jesus said to the centurion, Go, and as you have believed, so let it be to you. And his child was healed in that hour.


HT:

Here we see that He healed the child of a person who was most likely a Roman soldier, and not of Hebrew descent. It appears that Jesus built a following among the nations as well. And then we are told this:

Romans 2

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Ephesians 6

9 And lords, do the same things toward them, forbearing threatening, knowing that the Lord of you and of them is in Heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

HT:

To believe that out of 120 people in the upper room, that the possibility does not exist that even one was non-Hebrew, is an interesting concept. If they showed up were they told to go away? Hebrew chauvinism has become an attitude in the Messianic movement which I am seeing more and more. There are only two groups of people. Those who love Him, and those that do not. This is the only Scriptural distinction.


Henaynei:

it is not to be assumed (by non-Jewish cultural bias) that they were "together" on one group - it does not say "mixed". Such would NOT have been even considered during prayer or scripture study.

HT:

So then, was there a wall of partition in the upper room?

 

[Henaynei]

Partial Quote from Henaynei "You have just make (your own) halakah - what qualifies you to do that more than 5000 years of Torah scholars who spent their lives dedicated entirely to studying and knowing, G-d and His word, as well as building on and honoring the wisdom of the learned righteous fathers of the centuries before??"


I think There are cases where the halacha of those men were not correct. Yes it is true that Yeshua said to do what the Pharisees say. Why? Becasue they sit on Moshes seat. That is they are the teachers of the Torah and the uneducated mans only link to the word of God. And there is the issues of authority and Torah commands respect to a Torah teacher.

But what do we say when the Halacha of Yeshua is different than the Halacha of the Pharisees or Rabbinate? The Rabbis taught to hate the missionaries ect. Yeshua said to love your enemies and do good to them.

Charles in Florida

Believe it or not - in most cases the Halakah that Yeshua espoused became the standard - (i.e. "working" on Shabbat to save a live or bring healing - health care workers)

They may not give Him the "credit" but they have come to agree nonetheless

Also, in many cases His pronouncements had already been reflected in the statement of other Rabbis of His time or came to be stated by Rabbis after His time.....

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Actually this goes both ways, because the teaching of Yeshua are very close to the terachings of Hillel. He was a humanist, and believed that the law needed to bend in favor of circumstance and mercy in order to be just. Some of his teachings or sayings are variations of teaching already present in the Talmud (Mishna) at that time. Usually Yeshua would adapt the story or parable and use known local characters.

Charles in Florida