The True Believers of the Last Days

[Charlesinflorida]

In the Revelation and other scriptures we find a lot of information about those who will be living in the times of Tribulation preceding the return of the Lord. This description sould be a good indicator as to what our lives whould look like. Those who say that the Torah is no longer for the believers in the "Christian" covenant should pay close attention to what the word says.

Note the two outstanding features that identify true blievers:

Rev 12 [17] Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 14 [12] This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Yes, they have faith in Yeshua the Messiah, but they also obey the commandments of God! They do both, because they go hand in hand. You must be filled with the sprit to keep the Torah. The Torah leads us to Messiah and bings us to the infilling of the spirit.


Charles in Forida

 

[Key Of David]

Amen!! I feel the Elect in the Last Days are the ones who keep God's commandments as well as believe in Jesus Christ! Sometimes I feel alone because the majority of Christians....though they claim to love Him, don't really keep most of His laws anymore.

 

[theseed]

Much of Revelation also alludes to the book of Danial.

 

[ShirChadash]

In the Revelation and other scriptures we find a lot of information about those who will be living in the times of Tribulation preceding the return of the Lord. This description sould be a good indicator as to what our lives whould look like. Those who say that the Torah is no longer for the believers in the "Christian" covenant should pay close attention to what the word says.

Note the two outstanding features that identify true blievers:

Rev 12 [17] Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 14 [12] This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Yes, they have faith in Yeshua the Messiah, but they also obey the commandments of God! They do both, because they go hand in hand. You must be filled with the sprit to keep the Torah. The Torah leads us to Messiah and bings us to the infilling of the spirit.


Charles in Forida

Ditto, Charles.

 

[Trish1947]

Key Of DavidAmen!! I feel the Elect in the Last Days are the ones who keep God's commandments as well as believe in Jesus Christ! Sometimes I feel alone because the majority of Christians....though they claim to love Him, don't really keep most of His laws anymore

Is this statement being made by your experiance, or have you seen the book of life. No one knows who's names are or are not written in this book. OH, I know, I'll get a post that says the Torah, is this book.. Nope God has books and is keeping them.

 

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Trish,

OH, I know, I'll get a post that says the Torah, is this book..

Unfortunately, this shows your ignorance of Messianic Judaism and your bias.

Is this statement being made by your experiance, or have you seen the book of life.

Those who are the "Elect" are different from those listed in the book of Life.
As well, one can ascertain via scriptural references the qualifications for the "elect". Maybe you disagre, but instead of bashing... you should provide evidence for an opposing view.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[Henaynei]

Trish1947
Keep in mind, debate is not to occur in this forum between Messianics and Non-Messianics.
Take all interdenominational debates to the IDD Forum.
See our forum-specific rules posted here before any further participation:
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me thinks P4I could use a digital recording machine with input triggered playback!!! hugz ta' P4I paragon of moderator patience!!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Thank you for your kind confirmation and your comments to the contrary as well.

So lets go another step in our thinking: This is an important thing for us to consider. We have many today who are born Gentiles and are become Messianic. In Judaism, a Gentile who undergoes conversion is considered in every way to be a Jew, same as Born a Jew. In the new testament Church (if you will please excuse the term) the process of conversion is not what the Jews had established in the past, but was simply faith in Yeshua, with repentance from Paganism and sin in general, and a new obedience to Torah. This is what is prescribed by the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. The Pagans are to observe certain Kosher laws which are all associated with Pagan Temple activities, and they are to attend the local synagogues in their own cities to learn Moshe (Torah).

Now as we flip to Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 we see a different group, one which is condemned by the Lord.

2: 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

3:7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Yes they say they are Jews but are not, but lie. Now it gets a bit difficult. Nowhere in scripture are Jews no longer considered Jews because they do not believe that Yeshua is Messiah. They are still very much Jews. Although this is what the tradition of the church says, that it is non-believing Jews because the church uses its anti-semetic understanding to tie Jews to Satan. It does not fit.

What about gentiles who say they are Jews but are not really born Jews and have not converted to Judaism, but simply have a love for Israel but do everything in a christian way, with no regard for Torah ?

Or what about Gentiles who have faith in Yeshua as the Messiah and our salvation and also are obedient to Torah?

Well, lets get the opinion of our favorite pharisee Shaul:

RO 2:28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. [29] No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Ro 2: [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,

Herein lies a great danger. Are you part of a church wearing a Kippah, having only the outward appearance of being a Jew but do not live according to the Torah written on your heart? Or how about the New Testament church which claims with all boldness that the law (Torah) has passed away, and we are all free to live free from any instruction of Gods, so long as we say Jesus is our savior. The NT Church claims to have supplanted Israel and the Jews and are now those who receive the promises made to the Jews (replacement theology).

Look what the Lord Himself teaches:

A rich young ruler of the people comes to Yeshua and asks, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” Notice that Yeshua does NOT say, forget the law and everything you know, just believe in me. No! Yeshua begins quoting the Law to him. And the ruler says, “All these I have done since my youth.” Yeshua does NOT say, “Well you wasted your time!” No. He says, you have done well. Now, go and sell what you own and give it to the poor.” Because Yeshua saw where the man’s heart was in bondage. It was his wealth that was keeping him from coming into the fullness of what God had for him.
Yeshua kept the law perfectly. If this were not true, then Yeshua could not have been the perfect sinless sacrifice for all of us. The disciples also Kept the commandments according to their own testimony in the scriptures. The believers are also to keep the commandments. And I realize that the church does not teach it that way. But Paul taught us that there was only one people of God, one body of faith and that they are those whose mind is subject to the law of God. (Ro 8:7)

. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Lets turn that around to make it clearer shall we:

For those who are not carnaly minded but are spiritually minded do please God because their minds are in subjection to Gods Law (Torah)

Charles in Florida

 

[Trish1947]

EDITED TRISH'S POST SINCE THE PREVIOUS REMINDER WAS NOT HEEDED.
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Administrator

 

[Atkin]

Yeshua kept the law perfectly. If this were not true, then Yeshua could not have been the perfect sinless sacrifice for all of us. The disciples also Kept the commandments according to their own testimony in the scriptures. The believers are also to keep the commandments. And I realize that the church does not teach it that way. But Paul taught us that there was only one people of God, one body of faith and that they are those whose mind is subject to the law of God. (Ro 8:7)


Charles in Florida

You made a good point about Yeshua keeping the law, for he had to be sinless for his death to provide salvation for sinners.
However, there seems to be a void regarding what G-d himself stated about
which of the 613 laws , statutes etc, could be obeyed after the second dispersal.
In your opinion, how did the absence of a priesthood also make it even more
difficult to properly obey the all the laws after 70AD?

 

[Henaynei]

You made a good point about Yeshua keeping the law, for he had to be sinless for his death to provide salvation for sinners.
However, there seems to be a void regarding what G-d himself stated about
which of the 613 laws , statutes etc, could be obeyed after the second dispersal.
In your opinion, how did the absence of a priesthood also make it even more
difficult to properly obey the all the laws after 70AD?

There is a book called The Concise Bok of Mitzvot that clearly sets out what of the commandments can and can not be kept without a Temple and outside the Land. It is very instructive!!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

You made a good point about Yeshua keeping the law, for he had to be sinless for his death to provide salvation for sinners.
However, there seems to be a void regarding what G-d himself stated about
which of the 613 laws , statutes etc, could be obeyed after the second dispersal.
In your opinion, how did the absence of a priesthood also make it even more
difficult to properly obey the all the laws after 70AD?

Greetings Atkins,
This is a good question. And my answer is no better than what you have already gotten above. In fact I sometimes get in a bit of trouble trying to figure this out. It is true that there are things in the law that can not be done at this time. In fact from my own perspective there are things in the 613 that you would not want to do, because they are Rabbinical laws and have some racist factors. And of course there are laws that are for the priesthood, and things to do with the temple that can not be done outside of Jerusalems Temple mount. But underneith all this there is the laws of moral behavior and holiness. The same which Avraham kept and for which he is praised. These eternal laws predate the 613 and are summed up nicely in the Ten commandments, which are also re-punctuated in the sermon on the mount, and brought to the heart. Perhaps more on this later.

Charles In Florida.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Trish,

I apologize it I offended you in any way. I did not mean to offend anyone in this thread. When we speak of the requirements of the law, and realize that Yeshua and thedisciples kept the law we are provoked in our spirits. This happens to a great extent because the churches that we grew up in taught us a bunch of church traditional doctrine that can in no way be supported by scripture. It was all the doctrines of men. We have to be careful not to assume that Judaism is any diferent, because we know that much of the Rabbinical Judaism even in the days of Messiah Yeshua was man made and he condemned it then. I do not keep the law as I should and find myself daily asking for forgiveness.

Charles In Florida

 

[Higher Truth]

I have a few questions:

1] Did the Messiah stone the women caught in adultery by not only the two witnesses needed as prescribed, but by a whole crowd?

2] Did He heal [work] on Shabbat?

3] Did He associate with gentiles, even a gentile woman at the well?

4] Were women and men of Jew and gentile heritage gathered together in the upper room at pentecost?

5] Did Paul travel to Jerusalem [the temple] for all of the prescribed feasts once he started setting up the assemblies?

6] What did Peter say was required of the non-Jews ?

HT:

The problem is not in the Ten Declarations, but in man's "interpretation" of them.

 

[Higher Truth]

Quote:

You made a good point about Yeshua keeping the law, for he had to be sinless for his death to provide salvation for sinners.

HT:

Once again, are we talking about the Laws of God, or man's interpretations of them.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

HT,

I am not sure who you were addressing in this post. But I will give a quick anser to each. My answers in RED.



1] Did the Messiah stone the women caught in adultery by not only the two witnesses needed as prescribed, but by a whole crowd?

No, He extended mercy. The law is to bring repentance. If she would have stood and stated, "You and your God and His laws all stink and
I don't care what the law says!" Well this could have created a different sitution, making mercy more difficult. Paul says to turn such a one over to Satan for the tormenting of their flesh, (Which leads to repentance.) Besides the law would have called for the man also to be stoned, but the anxious crowd forgot this.

2] Did He heal [work] on Shabbat?

It has never been against the Torah to extend mercy and to heal on
Sabbath. This was a violation of pharisaical oral torah only.

3] Did He associate with gentiles, even a gentile woman at the well?

Again this was a oral torah commandment that called for separation from Gentiles to keep from becoming defiled. Torah expects the Jews to have Gentiles living in their midst and to be in social contact with them. But not to take part in their Pagan practices.

4] Were women and men of Jew and gentile heritage gathered together in the upper room at pentecost?

I do not believe there were both in the upper room. All there were observant of Torah and therefore considered Jews. They were gathered for the specific purpose of observing Shavuot which is when you reaffirm you allegance to Torah, renewing the covenant.

5] Did Paul travel to Jerusalem [the temple] for all of the prescribed feasts once he started setting up the assemblies?

6] What did Peter say was required of the non-Jews ?

That they should separate from Pagan practices of the Pagan temples with the eating of meats sacrified to Pagan gods, or drinking of blood, or the flesh of animals that were torn apart, or using temple prostitutes, (Fornication) These are all Pagan temple things. This prohibitions also fall under Kosher laws. The last they they are told to do is to get into fellowship in the Synagogues of their own cities each Sabbath so that they can learn the Torah. (Moshe is taught there)

HT:

The problem is not in the Ten Declarations, but in man's "interpretation" of them.

I agree. And mans understanding of what the scriptures of the apostolic writings really have to say, because they take them out of their Hebraic context.

 

[Higher Truth]

I want to answer these a few at a time:


4] Were women and men of Jew and gentile heritage gathered together in the upper room at pentecost?

Charles:

I do not believe there were both in the upper room. All there were observant of Torah and therefore considered Jews. They were gathered for the specific purpose of observing Shavuot which is when you reaffirm you allegance to Torah, renewing the covenant.

HT:

Acts 1

13 And when they went in, they went up to the upper room where they were waiting: both Peter and James, and John and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alpheus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the brother of James.
14 These all were continuing steadfastly in prayer and in supplication with one mind, with the women, and with Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
15 And in these days, standing up in the middle of the disciples, (and the number of names together being about a hundred and twenty), Peter said,
16 Men, brothers, it was necessary for this Scripture to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke before through David's mouth concerning Judas, the one having become guide to those seizing Jesus;

HT:

There were 120 people there in that room, men and women mixed. How did men and women worship in the temple?


6] What did Peter say was required of the non-Jews ?

Charles:

That they should separate from Pagan practices of the Pagan temples with the eating of meats sacrified to Pagan gods, or drinking of blood, or the flesh of animals that were torn apart, or using temple prostitutes, (Fornication) These are all Pagan temple things. This prohibitions also fall under Kosher laws. The last they they are told to do is to get into fellowship in the Synagogues of their own cities each Sabbath so that they can learn the Torah. (Moshe is taught there)


Galatians 2

11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before some came from James, he ate with the nations. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, being afraid of those of the circumcision.
13 And also the rest of the Jews dissembled with him, so as even Barnabas was led away with their dissembling.
14 But when I saw that they did not walk uprightly with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before all, If you being a Jew, live heathen-like, and not as the Jews, why do you compel the nations to Judaize?

HT:

Learning the Scriptures is different that following man's interpretation of The Law.

 

[Henaynei]

In fact from my own perspective there are things in the 613 that you would not want to do, because they are Rabbinical laws and have some racist factors.

The 613 are by defination the commandments in the Torah - not "man made".

 

[Charlesinflorida]

The 613 are by defination the commandments in the Torah - not "man made".

Greetings,

The 613 are based on the Torah but are the Rabbinical understanding of how these laws or instructions were best carried out and what the point was. For example

Deut 13 : DT 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [7] Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; [8] Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: [9] But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. [10] And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. [11] And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

To me the point is to judiciously deal with anyone who tries to lead you away from God and into Idolatry. But the codified Rabbinical version actually directs this at Christian Missonaries. (all based on verse 9

37 Not to love the missionary Deut. 13:9
38 Not to cease hating the missionary Deut. 13:9
39 Not to save the missionary Deut. 13:9
40 Not to say anything in his defense Deut. 13:9
41 Not to refrain from incriminating him Deut. 13:9


76 To say the Shema twice daily Deut. 6:7

Deut 6:[6] And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: [7] And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. [8] And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. [9] And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

79 To wear tefillin on the head Deut. 6:8
80 To bind tefillin on the arm Deut. 6:8
81 To put a mezuzah on each door post Deut. 6:9



82 Each male must write a Sefer Torah Deut. 31:19

Deut 31: [19] Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

I am not saying they are wrong or evil. Just that the intent of God may have been taken too far because of the hedges that were added to prevent an accidental breaking of the law. Some of the recommentdations might be beneficial, however the 613 is just the tip of the iceberg as you know. There are many additional laws from the oral torah. These Yeshua did not consider binding or advantageous.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I want to answer these a few at a time:


4] Were women and men of Jew and gentile heritage gathered together in the upper room at pentecost?

Charles:

I do not believe there were both in the upper room. All there were observant of Torah and therefore considered Jews. They were gathered for the specific purpose of observing Shavuot which is when you reaffirm you allegance to Torah, renewing the covenant.

HT:

Acts 1

13 And when they went in, they went up to the upper room where they were waiting: both Peter and James, and John and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alpheus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the brother of James.
14 These all were continuing steadfastly in prayer and in supplication with one mind, with the women, and with Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
15 And in these days, standing up in the middle of the disciples, (and the number of names together being about a hundred and twenty), Peter said,
16 Men, brothers, it was necessary for this Scripture to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke before through David's mouth concerning Judas, the one having become guide to those seizing Jesus;

HT:

There were 120 people there in that room, men and women mixed. How did men and women worship in the temple?


6] What did Peter say was required of the non-Jews ?

Charles:

That they should separate from Pagan practices of the Pagan temples with the eating of meats sacrified to Pagan gods, or drinking of blood, or the flesh of animals that were torn apart, or using temple prostitutes, (Fornication) These are all Pagan temple things. This prohibitions also fall under Kosher laws. The last they they are told to do is to get into fellowship in the Synagogues of their own cities each Sabbath so that they can learn the Torah. (Moshe is taught there)


Galatians 2

11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before some came from James, he ate with the nations. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, being afraid of those of the circumcision.
13 And also the rest of the Jews dissembled with him, so as even Barnabas was led away with their dissembling.
14 But when I saw that they did not walk uprightly with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before all, If you being a Jew, live heathen-like, and not as the Jews, why do you compel the nations to Judaize?

HT:

Learning the Scriptures is different that following man's interpretation of The Law.

HT, It seems to me that you re-worded your question. You asked if the men and women in the upper room were a mixture of Jew and Gentile.

"Were women and men of Jew and gentile heritage gathered together in the upper room at pentecost?"

After I answered what seemed to be your question you changed it to an issue of men and woman being gathered together:

"There were 120 people there in that room, men and women mixed. How did men and women worship in the temple?"

So now I will chase after your newer version of the question by saying that the upper room is not the temple or a synagogue. It was in fact the same upper room that had served as the place of the last supper on peasak and was the upper room at the resedence of King David, a memorial in the Esscene Quarter and both men and women were welcome there.

Concerning Galatians 2 and the gentile problem. You should be aware that the chronology of the letters in dot depicted by their order of placement in the bible. Galatians was written before the council of Acts 15. It is part of the incident which probably lead to the ned for that meeting in Jerusalem. You should also notice that James agrees with how the Gentiles should be handled. In Gal 2 it seems that it is only Peters fear of what the men from Jerusalem might think. There is also the possibility that these men, though they were from the group of James church, that they were more zealous than what James himself might had wanted. There are a lot of missing pieces to this puzzle.

I think many people miss the point of the letter to the Galatians. These were Gentile believers, who had become enamoured with Jewish things and culture and had begun to take both Joy and pride in their new staus afforded them from being Jewlike in their practice. They had even slipped into the error of legalistic observation of Torah commands thinking it added to their salvation. And paul correctly rebukes them for this error. It is not a matter of Jewishness, or social status that counts. It is a matter of faith by which we are included in the chosen community of called out ones. Our righteous works are the outgrowth of our relationship with Yeshua through faith and the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Learning the scriptures in the context in which they were written.

Charles in Florida