The Troposphere

[rockytopva]

I just returned from a trip to Tahiti where I traveled on prop, jet, and cruise liner. It was fun examining the elements of the Troposphere!

Ft Activity
150,000 Upper Stratosphere
100,000 Stratosphere and the beginning of the ozone layer from space
65,000 Lower Stratosphere blue sky turns black from here
60,000 Tropopause - About the coldest point of the atmosphere
58,000 Concorde SS jet could reach these heights
56,000 Cumulonimbus (storm) clouds can reach these hieghts
54,000
52,000 Cessna Citation X private jet can fly at these altitudes
50,000 Curvature of the earth reportedly seen here
48,000
46,000 Max Q - Max dynamic pressure for rockets can occur here
44,000
42,000 Modern Passenger Jet
40,000
38,000
36,000
34,000 Birds have been seen flying at these heights
32,000 About the max altitude for the WW2 Prop driven planes
30,000 Mount Everest
28,000 Jet streams can blow at these altitudes
26,000
24,000 Prop planes like the Haviland Dash
22,000 Andes Mountains - South Americas highest points
20,000 Mount McKinley Alaska - Highest point in N America
18,000 Mount Elbrus - Highest European point
16,000
14,000 Highest peaks - Lower 48 states
12,000 Highest Peaks - Hawaii
10,000 Stratocumulous - Textured-Puffy cloud reach these heights
8,000 Cumulus low level clouds exist here
6,000 Appalachian mountains are at their highest
4,000 Nimbostratus (Rain all day) clouds
2,000 2k' is where I dwell… Not impressive on this scale!
0 Sea level

 

[AV1611VET]

Amazing, isn't it!?

And to think scientific methodists can't figure out what "firmament" is in Genesis 1.

They think it is talking about a solid dome, and yet they look right through it to complain about SN1987A.

That's because they think Genesis 1:1 reads "the heavens [plural] and the earth."

Only from the mind of a scientist, eh?

 

[dickyh995]

AV, are you saying that "firmament" in Genesis 1 means the Troposphere? If not, can you please then enlighten us all as to what can be learned from the use of the word in Genesis 1? I'm assuming there has to be something that science hasn't yet discovered? Otherwise you could just take all scientific discovery, find some verse in the great book of multiple choice and claim, "See, the bible said it all along," which would be dishonest right?
Also, why would scientists spend time figuring out what "firmament" is in Genesis 1? What benefit could that have to society or to an individual for that matter?

 

[[serious]]

Amazing, isn't it!?

And to think scientific methodists can't figure out what "firmament" is in Genesis 1.

They think it is talking about a solid dome, and yet they look right through it to complain about SN1987A.

That's because they think Genesis 1:1 reads "the heavens [plural] and the earth."

Only from the mind of a scientist, eh?

None of those layers are particularly firm.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, are you saying that "firmament" in Genesis 1 means the Troposphere? If not, can you please then enlighten us all as to what can be learned from the use of the word in Genesis 1?

There are three containment areas (firmaments) created in Genesis 1; each one populated with its own objects.

First Heaven = atmosphere = 0 - 62 miles up
Second Heaven = outer space = 62 miles - edge of universe
Third Heaven = Heaven proper

I'm assuming there has to be something that science hasn't yet discovered?

You said a mouthful there.

Unless science discovers it on their own, it doesn't exist.

Despite the fact that God said He hid things in the earth for future discovery, scientists want to factor God out of the equation and factor Mother Nature into it.

Otherwise you could just take all scientific discovery, find some verse in the great book of multiple choice and claim, "See, the bible said it all along," which would be dishonest right?

You mean like disregarding the fact that God said He is stretching the [second] heaven out, yet giving credit to Hubble for "discovering" (not "confirming") this great truth?

Also, why would scientists spend time figuring out what "firmament" is in Genesis 1?

Good question.

The answer deals with end-time events that I don't want to get into; since I got moderated for saying something I truly believe.

But for the record, I truly believe scientists today, while not realizing it, are gearing up for one doosey of a battle against Christians in the not-too-distant future.

They already express their venom towards us -- albeit passively; but they are playing right into the hands of someone who is about to take charge of all scientific paradigms.

What benefit could that have to society or to an individual for that matter?

Genesis 1 is history -- not science.

 

[AV1611VET]

None of those layers are particularly firm.

I thought you guys said it is a brass (or bronze) dome or something?

 

[Strathos]

For a supposed Biblical literalist, you sure make a lot of figurative interpretations...

 

[AV1611VET]

For a supposed Biblical literalist, you sure make a lot of figurative interpretations...

I couldn't have said that more vaguely myself.

 

[dickyh995]

There are three containment areas (firmaments) created in Genesis 1; each one populated with its own objects.

First Heaven = atmosphere = 0 - 62 miles up
Second Heaven = outer space = 62 miles - edge of universe
Third Heaven = Heaven proper

Evidenced by? I don't recall any measured distances in the bible.

You said a mouthful there.

Unless science discovers it on their own, it doesn't exist.

Despite the fact that God said He hid things in the earth for future discovery, scientists want to factor God out of the equation and factor Mother Nature into it.

I understand that many young earth creationists believe that god hid things in the Earth but the question is why? Why would a loving, omnipotent being be so careless, particularly as these "hidden" things seem to fit so well into current theories of Evolution, cosmology etc?
Also, although not a paid scientist myself, I don't understand why you think the scientific community would "want to factor god out of the equation." As far as I can tell, the question of god doesn't come up in any scientific theory, nor can it. Science deals with the observation of reality and what is falsifiable.

You mean like disregarding the fact that God said He is stretching the [second] heaven out, yet giving credit to Hubble for "discovering" (not "confirming") this great truth?

This is exactly what I meant in my previous post, you seem to want to retrofit biblical verses to fit with scientific discovery. I don't understand how Hubble using the scientific method to determine that the universe is expanding can possibly be equated to a vague verse about the heavens stretching. If, as you claim, God was telling us the same thing, why is it only interpreted as an expanding universe AFTER it is observed using the methods of science.

Good question.

The answer deals with end-time events that I don't want to get into; since I got moderated for saying something I truly believe.

ok

But for the record, I truly believe scientists today, while not realizing it, are gearing up for one doosey of a battle against Christians in the not-too-distant future.

Interesting comment...how many scientists on this forum see this as a likely outcome? Can you explain how or even why you think this will happen? Seems unlikely to me.

They already express their venom towards us -- albeit passively; but they are playing right into the hands of someone who is about to take charge of all scientific paradigms.

Who are they playing into the hands of? You claim to see scientists expressing venom towards you. I'd say the opposite. I've lurked on this forum for a while now and it seems to me that when questioned about anything that goes against the particular flavour of creationism being touted, or they refute a paper/article trying to shed doubt on the ToE, all that comes back from the creationist is vitriol and some rhetoric about science trying to undermine god along with statements backed by zero evidence.

Genesis 1 is history -- not science.

Yep, Genesis is definitely not science. Secondly, it's hardly history either. History is the study of past events. Do you mean mythology?

 

[AV1611VET]

Evidenced by?

Science.

First Heaven, documented as a "firmament" separating a layer of water from its main body ...

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

... is what scientists call the "atmosphere."

They claim -- (and it's a good enough claim for me) -- that the atmosphere extends to 100 kilometers (62 miles) up.

Picture an aquarium with 30' walls, filled with water up to ... say ... 10'.

Now shear a layer of about 6" of water off the top and move it up about 15' -- (this isn't to scale, of course).

Note that the area between the surface of the main body of water, and the six-inch layer of water is what we call "first heaven".

It corresponds to a layer of air between the ground and 62 miles up, that we call the "atmosphere."

I don't recall any measured distances in the bible.

None were given.

I understand that many young earth creationists believe that god hid things in the Earth but the question is why?

First of all, I'm not a YEC; but I come close to one.

Second, I believe God hid things in the earth because, if He had not done so, the earth would have had nuclear capabilities back in Pharaoh's time.

Science had to progress slowly; and I believe the Tower of Babel incident took place because science was progressing too quickly.

Why would a loving, omnipotent being ...

Here we go!

... be so careless,

And this tells me you're not sincere -- so now I'm just casting my pearls before scientists, aren't I?

 

[dickyh995]

First Heaven, documented as a "firmament" separating a layer of water from its main body ...

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

... is what scientists call the "atmosphere."

They claim -- (and it's a good enough claim for me) -- that the atmosphere extends to 100 kilometers (62 miles) up.

Picture an aquarium with 30' walls, filled with water up to ... say ... 10'.

Now shear a layer of about 6" of water off the top and move it up about 15' -- (this isn't to scale, of course).

Note that the area between the surface of the main body of water, and the six-inch layer of water is what we call "first heaven".

It corresponds to a layer of air between the ground and 62 miles up, that we call the "atmosphere."

Second, I believe God hid things in the earth because, if He had not done so, the earth would have had nuclear capabilities back in Pharaoh's time.

Science had to progress slowly; and I believe the Tower of Babel incident took place because science was progressing too quickly

You make some rather interesting claims there I must say. May I ask how you came to these beliefs? What evidence has lead you to those remarkable conclusions? Or is that question not sincere enough?

And this tells me you're not sincere -- so now I'm just casting my pearls before scientists, aren't I?

 

[AV1611VET]

You make some rather interesting claims there I must say. May I ask how you came to these beliefs? What evidence has lead you to those remarkable conclusions? Or is that question not sincere enough?

First of all, one does not have to be a Rhodes scholar to figure this out.

One only has to know where the atmosphere ends and outer space starts.

And scientists tell us that.

Second of all, this stuff is basic doctrine within our faith.

Thirdly, Google is your friend:

http://www.kjvbible.org/images/3heavens.jpg