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Sorry. I'm so used to using these idioms like "made up" that I forget that their literal interpretation can cause people to misunderstand what I'm actually trying to explain. My bad. I concur with your further explanation.
Best Regards,
You need to pay a lot more careful attention to detail. Those comments were not addressed to you they were addressed to 'croref' (unless, of course, 'croref' and 'ormly' are one and the same person)?!
[COL]No. The Messiah is not 'the seed of the Word of God'. He IS the Word of God [i.e. the Second Person of the Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH] incarnate as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth (Jn.1:1,14). As the Second Person of the One Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH, the Son/Word/Logos/Memre is ALREADY Eternally Sinless even before He incarnated as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth. [/COLOR]OR=blue
No. If the Messiah had been of the old order as you suppose then He would never have been victorious over sin and death. Unlike the rest of the human race, the Messiah was never included 'in Adam' (5:12-21) otherwise he would have been born a regular sinful human creature, just like the rest of us (Rom.3:9-18). Instead the Messiah as victorious is the 'father' of the 'New Man' (2Cor.5:17). In other words the Messiah is of a different order of human creature to that of Adam. The Messiah was sinless precisiely because He was/is YHWH Himself incarnate as a human creature.
Simonline.
I see that. Sorry.
If He was the seed of the woman He was seed of the Word of God in her. Women carry no seed.
Then why is Jesus called the "last Adam"?
Question: do you know the definition of "messiah"?
Can ever God die?
This is just for starters. Your post is ludicrous.
Fair enough.
I well understand that, however, Messiah wasn't messiah until He had performed ALL according to His Father's will. It couldn't be otherwise because Jesus, the man, had to walk out the "way" of the cross before He could do the the "work" of the cross. In this, and for the first thirty years of His life, was He "groomed" or "made ready" for being sent into the world. Now, Who of what did the grooming, if He was already the mature "Word of God" from birth?No. The reference to the Messiah being 'the seed of the woman' was a reference to His Virgin Birth (i.e that He had no natural human father). The Messiah could not be both the Word of God (Jn.1:1,14) and 'the seed of the Word of God'?! The Messiah IS the Word of God [i.e. the Second Person of the Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH] incarnate as a man.
For which Jesus had to prove and in the proving became: ". . . . the captain of our salvation perfected through (His) sufferings." Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)Because just as Adam was the progenitor of the original human race so the Messiah is the Progenitor of the New Human Race (1Cor.15:20-23). The contrast is between the two progenitors of whom there are only the two - Adam and Messiah - and no more.
Perfected?? The "Word" of God??
No. Only a sinless man was needed as a sacrifice to cancel out Adam's transgression. Had one been found on earth, God would not have needed to perform a miracle birth. Ergo, the "seed" of the "Word" implanted in Mary. Having written that, I well understand other matters concerning man's future destiny of being in union with God was included in the success of Jesus living out His life. AND, having written that, it is of the utmost that we keep in mind that the "Word" laid aside His attributes that Jesus would only function as man God intended man to be when He created him. . . . which is the reason Jesus is sometimes called, the last Adam.No. The Divine Creator as the Divine Creator is incapable of experiencing death (i.e. separation from Life (Jn.14:6)) which is why He has had to incarnate as a human creature in order that He might experience death. If Death is separation from Life then where does Life Himself go to die?!
Keep in mind, when you are writing your rebuttal to this this, everything written about WHO Jesus IS was written after the writers found out themselves and that by revelation.
YSorry 'bout my choice of words. You have had some good things to say and didn't deserve that from me.ou think that my post is ludicrous?! You should try reading your own?!
I well understand that, however, Messiah wasn't messiah until He had performed ALL according to His Father's will. It couldn't be otherwise because Jesus, the man, had to walk out the "way" of the cross before He could do the the "work" of the cross. In this, and for the first thirty years of His life, was He "groomed" or "made ready" for being sent into the world. Now, Who of what did the grooming, if He was already the mature "Word of God" from birth?
For which Jesus had to prove and in the proving became: ". . . . the captain of our salvation perfected through (His) sufferings." Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)
Perfected?? The "Word" of God??
No. Only a sinless man was needed as a sacrifice to cancel out Adam's transgression.
Had one been found on earth, God would not have needed to perform a miracle birth. Ergo, the "seed" of the "Word" implanted in Mary.
Having written that, I well understand other matters concerning man's future destiny of being in union with God was included in the success of Jesus living out His life. AND, having written that, it is of the utmost that we keep in mind that the "Word" laid aside His attributes that Jesus would only function as man God intended man to be when He created him. . . . which is the reason Jesus is sometimes called, the last Adam.
Keep in mind, when you are writing your rebuttal to this this, everything written about WHO Jesus IS was written after the writers found out themselves and that by revelation.
Sorry 'bout my choice of words. You have had some good things to say and didn't deserve that from me.
Are you implying there is something magical in that title?Yes, but He was still the Messiah even whilst He was being 'proven'. The Messiah was not 'chosen' only after He had 'proven' Himself. He was chosen from before the foundation of the world (1Pet.1:18-21). Therefore, as I have already said, He was the Messiah from the Begining.
The Son did not stop being the Eternal Word of God (Jn.1:1,14) all the while that He was also incarnate as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth.
according to Scripture, the Messiah is NOT the 'seed of the Word' (?!), He is the seed of the woman
The Son Who has incarnated is Himself the Word (Jn.1:1,14)
and therefore cannot also be the offspring of the Word (and you say that my posts are ludicrous)?!
Define it
Explain it
Provide an analogy.
I will go first:
God the father is the substance of God, he is the structure of God, he is the force that is called God. He is invisible, and impossible to understand in light of itself by man.
Jesus - As the likeness of a man's face is dependent on the form of the face, but by definition, the likeness is indivisible from the form, so Jesus is the image of the invisible God giving a likeness to the form of God. He is his "Logos", his word, and the summation of who he is,
The Holy Spirit - If one looks at a person, what they see is not the person himself, but rather the light that comes from the form of the person, and relays the likeness of the image of the form. So it is with the spirit, he proceeds from the father, and is the only way in which we can understand and see who God is, as he faithfully conveys the image who is God.
Are you implying there is something magical in that title?
Then why would God give Him a Name above every name if the humanity of Jesus wasn't what this whole thing of "becoming" is all about.
OMT: Jesus only had one Nature and it was given Him as a human to protect it.
By revelation FACT, He was.
The Son never existed before He was begotten. . . . unless, of course you can speak of His divine mother?
Ludicrous? Well, lets just say you lack revelation truth. One pays that price for adhering too tightly to un-revelational orthodoxy.
I'm a Christian, not a sorcerer. There is nothing magical about the title Messiah/Christ. It's just that, according to the Scriptures, the Eternal Son/Word(Logos)/Memre was chosen to be the Messiah/Christ before the Creation ever came into existence.
Only in the "Reality" of the Mind of God was the man Jesus, who was yet to be begotten of the Father__"In the fullness of time", become the eternal Son. Consider thinking predestination in this matter. Now, having said that: if you want to say the Word/Logos had a form, I would agree. . . But He was never a Son. . . In the fullness of time He became flesh and blood; was made a little lower than the angels to suffer as a man.
Firstly, the name 'Jesus of Nazareth' refers to the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre existing as a human creature therefore Jesus of Nazareth is human and only human but the Person Who exists as Jesus of Nazareth also exists as the Divine Creator, YHWH.
When did He exist as the Divine creator and still be called the begotten Son of God?? Can you answer that??
The Word was with God and was God from the beginning___ before Jesus was born.The Father has given His Son (incarnate as human) the Name that is above all names as the reward for His absolute faithfulness. The Son (discarnate as Divine) already has the Name above all names. Thus YHWH has now exalted the human creature to the same rank and status as that of the Divine Creator (Phil.2:5-11).
OMT? = One More Thing
No so. Consider your own lack of understanding. Jesus never had a human nature to protect. His Nature was of His Father. Ergo, It was a Divine Nature He was given to protect. Jesus succeeded is this whereas, Adam failed.Your statement is self-contradictory. How can Jesus as human have been given a human nature to protect it?! If Jesus was already human then of what need had he for a second human nature?!
Nope. And if one is born again [which I don't believe you are] he is 'imputed' a new divine Nature, just like the one Jesus had for to do what Jesus did, overcome the enemy of that new, imputed, Divine Nature, i.e., his own rotten flesh. Read Jesus' prayer for His disciples in John 17, for the first time.The Messiah/Christ exists as TWO NATURES, one Eternally Divine (YHWH) and the other temporally human (Jesus of Nazareth). As human the Son is Jesus of Nazareth and only Jesus of Nazareth whilst as Divine the Son is YHWH and only YHWH.
Watch it bloke. You are out of line!Repeating the same heresy over and over again doe not make it true?! There is no such thing anywhere in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as 'the seed of the word'. If you are in complete denial about the truth then you are beyond help?
Try again. It is you who need to explain the many, various, scripture passages that you heretofore have not addressed.If you're going to insist on being in permanent denial about the truth (2Cor.4:4) then this conversation is over?!
The Scriptures are clear that the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre is God (Jn.1:1) and therefore is everything that God is (i.e. Infinite, Eternal, Immutable, Omniscient, Omniopotent, Omnipresent, etc.). If you're just going to stick your head in the sand and keep repeating 'No, he isn't?!', contrary to all the Scriptural evidence, then there is no point in continuing this conversation.
John 1:1 doesn't even begin to support your assertions and I have given you the reason why John COULD NOT even have known such things BEFORE John 20:22 happened. . . . Nor did Jesus EVER declare Himself to be God, nor did He before John knew it to write it as he did. In all ACTUALITY, the ascension of Jesus was when everything of Jesus was 'Really' FINISHED.
Would the moderators care to suggest a course of action in such a case as this where the person is in total denial of reality?! In the real world this person would be asked to leave but lets never forget that the internet (and especially Christian forums where one is prohibited from speaking the truth) is NOT the real world.Simonline.
Now show me heresy in any of what I posited??
I repeat, I don't believe you are born again. You have no insight in this matter.
I repeat, I don't believe you are born again. You have no insight in this matter.
Fortunately, that's not your decision or judgment to make.
-CryptoLutheran
Why not? The spiritual man is to judge all thing spiritual. Prove, run out, test, put it up against God's Plumbline.
Last I checked Jesus is the One who will discern those on the left and the right of Him, wheat and tares, sheep and goats.
If being a "spiritual man" means what you apparently think it means, then I would rather not be spiritual--I would rather defer to Jesus the right to make Judgment and hope for grace with the faith He has given me to believe and trust in Him.
-CryptoLutheran
Consider this to be the reality of the privilege for those who pursue John 17:3:
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:21-23 (KJV)
And, amazingly, nothing there says you're one of Jesus' special spiritual elite who gets to stand in judgment of the eternal fate and salvation of your neighbor.
That's still God's job. Not yours, not mine.
-CryptoLutheran
And, amazingly, nothing there says you're one of Jesus' special spiritual elite who gets to stand in judgment of the eternal fate and salvation of your neighbor.
That's still God's job. Not yours, not mine.
-CryptoLutheran
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:21-23 (KJV)
Do you believe that passage?
Do I believe that Jesus wants His Church to be unified? Yes. Yes I believe this; but tragically we've been divided since the 5th century between the Church of the East, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestants and Roman Catholics.
-CryptoLutheran
I'm a Christian, not a sorcerer. There is nothing magical about the title Messiah/Christ. It's just that, according to the Scriptures, the Eternal Son/Word(Logos)/Memre was chosen to be the Messiah/Christ before the Creation ever came into existence.
Only in the "Reality" of the Mind of God was the man Jesus, who was yet to be begotten of the Father__"In the fullness of time", become the eternal Son. Consider thinking predestination in this matter. Now, having said that: if you want to say the Word/Logos had a form, I would agree. . . But He was never a Son. . . In the fullness of time He became flesh and blood; was made a little lower than the angels to suffer as a man.
Firstly, the name 'Jesus of Nazareth' refers to the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre existing as a human creature therefore Jesus of Nazareth is human and only human but the Person Who exists as Jesus of Nazareth also exists as the Divine Creator, YHWH.
When did He exist as the Divine creator and still be called the begotten Son of God?? Can you answer that??
The Word was with God and was God from the beginning___ before Jesus was born.
OMT?
= One More Thing
No so. Consider your own lack of understanding. Jesus never had a human nature to protect. His Nature was of His Father. Ergo, It was a Divine Nature He was given to protect. Jesus succeeded is this whereas, Adam failed.
Nope. And if one is born again [which I don't believe you are] he is 'imputed' a new divine Nature, just like the one Jesus had for to do what Jesus did, overcome the enemy of that new, imputed, Divine Nature, i.e., his own rotten flesh. Read Jesus' prayer for His disciples in John 17, for the first time.
Watch it bloke. You are out of line!
Try again. It is you who need to explain the many, various, scripture passages that you heretofore have not addressed.
John 1:1 doesn't even begin to support your assertions and I have given you the reason why John COULD NOT even have known such things BEFORE John 20:22 happened. . . . Nor did Jesus EVER declare Himself to be God, nor did He before John knew it to write it as he did. In all ACTUALITY, the ascension of Jesus was when everything of Jesus was 'Really' FINISHED.
Now show me heresy in any of what I posited??
I repeat, I don't believe you are born again. You have no insight in this matter.
Chapter and verse please as that being a truth BEFORE He was begotten! If it is as you say, that Jesus was a son before He was begotten, who was His mother?The Second Person of the Trinity [the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre] is the Eternally Begotten Son of the Father.
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