The Trinity

[Simonline]

Sorry. I'm so used to using these idioms like "made up" that I forget that their literal interpretation can cause people to misunderstand what I'm actually trying to explain. My bad. I concur with your further explanation.

Best Regards,

At least you recognize that there is sometimes a difference between what you mean and what you say. Unfortunately, for some people, that concept seems to be completely beyond them?!

Simonline.

 

[Ormly]

You need to pay a lot more careful attention to detail. Those comments were not addressed to you they were addressed to 'croref' (unless, of course, 'croref' and 'ormly' are one and the same person)?!

I see that. Sorry.

[COL]No. The Messiah is not 'the seed of the Word of God'. He IS the Word of God [i.e. the Second Person of the Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH] incarnate as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth (Jn.1:1,14). As the Second Person of the One Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH, the Son/Word/Logos/Memre is ALREADY Eternally Sinless even before He incarnated as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth. [/COLOR]OR=blue

If He was the seed of the woman He was seed of the Word of God in her. Women carry no seed.

No. If the Messiah had been of the old order as you suppose then He would never have been victorious over sin and death. Unlike the rest of the human race, the Messiah was never included 'in Adam' (5:12-21) otherwise he would have been born a regular sinful human creature, just like the rest of us (Rom.3:9-18). Instead the Messiah as victorious is the 'father' of the 'New Man' (2Cor.5:17). In other words the Messiah is of a different order of human creature to that of Adam. The Messiah was sinless precisiely because He was/is YHWH Himself incarnate as a human creature.

Simonline.

Then why is Jesus called the "last Adam"?

Question: do you know the definition of "messiah"? Can ever God die?

This is just for starters. Your post is ludicrous.

 

[Simonline]

I see that. Sorry.

Fair enough.

If He was the seed of the woman He was seed of the Word of God in her. Women carry no seed.

No. The reference to the Messiah being 'the seed of the woman' was a reference to His Virgin Birth (i.e that He had no natural human father). The Messiah could not be both the Word of God (Jn.1:1,14) and 'the seed of the Word of God'?! The Messiah IS the Word of God [i.e. the Second Person of the Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH] incarnate as a man.

Then why is Jesus called the "last Adam"?

Because just as Adam was the progenitor of the original human race so the Messiah is the Progenitor of the New Human Race (1Cor.15:20-23). The contrast is between the two progenitors of whom there are only the two - Adam and Messiah - and no more.

Question: do you know the definition of "messiah"?

Yes, it means 'annointed' or 'chosen' one.

Can ever God die?

No. The Divine Creator as the Divine Creator is incapable of experiencing death (i.e. separation from Life (Jn.14:6)) which is why He has had to incarnate as a human creature in order that He might experience death. If Death is separation from Life then where does Life Himself go to die?!

This is just for starters. Your post is ludicrous.

You think that my post is ludicrous?! You should try reading your own?!

Simonline.

 

[Ormly]

Fair enough.

No. The reference to the Messiah being 'the seed of the woman' was a reference to His Virgin Birth (i.e that He had no natural human father). The Messiah could not be both the Word of God (Jn.1:1,14) and 'the seed of the Word of God'?! The Messiah IS the Word of God [i.e. the Second Person of the Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH] incarnate as a man.

I well understand that, however, Messiah wasn't messiah until He had performed ALL according to His Father's will. It couldn't be otherwise because Jesus, the man, had to walk out the "way" of the cross before He could do the the "work" of the cross. In this, and for the first thirty years of His life, was He "groomed" or "made ready" for being sent into the world. Now, Who of what did the grooming, if He was already the mature "Word of God" from birth?

Because just as Adam was the progenitor of the original human race so the Messiah is the Progenitor of the New Human Race (1Cor.15:20-23). The contrast is between the two progenitors of whom there are only the two - Adam and Messiah - and no more.

For which Jesus had to prove and in the proving became: ". . . . the captain of our salvation perfected through (His) sufferings." Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)

Perfected?? The "Word" of God??

No. The Divine Creator as the Divine Creator is incapable of experiencing death (i.e. separation from Life (Jn.14:6)) which is why He has had to incarnate as a human creature in order that He might experience death. If Death is separation from Life then where does Life Himself go to die?!

No. Only a sinless man was needed as a sacrifice to cancel out Adam's transgression. Had one been found on earth, God would not have needed to perform a miracle birth. Ergo, the "seed" of the "Word" implanted in Mary. Having written that, I well understand other matters concerning man's future destiny of being in union with God was included in the success of Jesus living out His life. AND, having written that, it is of the utmost that we keep in mind that the "Word" laid aside His attributes that Jesus would only function as man God intended man to be when He created him. . . . which is the reason Jesus is sometimes called, the last Adam.

Keep in mind, when you are writing your rebuttal to this this, everything written about WHO Jesus IS was written after the writers found out themselves and that by revelation.

Y

ou think that my post is ludicrous?! You should try reading your own?!

Sorry 'bout my choice of words. You have had some good things to say and didn't deserve that from me.

 

[Simonline]

I well understand that, however, Messiah wasn't messiah until He had performed ALL according to His Father's will. It couldn't be otherwise because Jesus, the man, had to walk out the "way" of the cross before He could do the the "work" of the cross. In this, and for the first thirty years of His life, was He "groomed" or "made ready" for being sent into the world. Now, Who of what did the grooming, if He was already the mature "Word of God" from birth?

No. The Person of the Son, as the Divine Creator, is the Eternal Word of God and as such is Immutable. However, incarnate as the human creature, He needed to 'learn obedience through suffering' (Heb.2:10). Nevertheless, the Person of the Son, both as Divine and human, was the Messiah from the moment of incarnation (and technically from the very Begining as well (1Pet.1:18-21)). Whilst the Messiah as human needed to be 'proven' that did not mean that He was not the Messiah until He had been 'proven'.

For which Jesus had to prove and in the proving became: ". . . . the captain of our salvation perfected through (His) sufferings." Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)

Yes, but He was still the Messiah even whilst He was being 'proven'. The Messiah was not 'chosen' only after He had 'proven' Himself. He was chosen from before the foundation of the world (1Pet.1:18-21). Therefore, as I have already said, He was the Messiah from the Begining.

Perfected?? The "Word" of God??

Perfected as human, yes! Your line of argument is failing to take into account the fact that the Messiah is a single Person existing in two distinct but not separate ways as both Divine Creator [YHWH] and human creature [Jesus of Nazareth]. The Son as Divine did not need perfecting (i.e. being made complete) since He is Eternally and Immutably complete. It was only as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth that the Messiah needed to be 'made perfect' (i.e. his obedience being made complete through His suffering). The Son did not stop being the Eternal Word of God (Jn.1:1,14) all the while that He was also incarnate as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth.

No. Only a sinless man was needed as a sacrifice to cancel out Adam's transgression.

Not true. A single, sinless, finite human creature who was not also the Infinite Divine Creator incarnate as a man would not have been sufficient to atone for the sin of the entire world (1Jn.2:2). Only the Messiah as the Infinite Divine Creator incarnate as a man would be sufficient to atone for the sin of the whole world (Acts.20:28(b)) and thus be the propitiation for our sin.

Had one been found on earth, God would not have needed to perform a miracle birth. Ergo, the "seed" of the "Word" implanted in Mary.

Except that, according to Scripture, the Messiah is NOT the 'seed of the Word' (?!), He is the seed of the woman (Gal.4:4) The Son Who has incarnated is Himself the Word (Jn.1:1,14) and therefore cannot also be the offspring of the Word (and you say that my posts are ludicrous)?!

Having written that, I well understand other matters concerning man's future destiny of being in union with God was included in the success of Jesus living out His life. AND, having written that, it is of the utmost that we keep in mind that the "Word" laid aside His attributes that Jesus would only function as man God intended man to be when He created him. . . . which is the reason Jesus is sometimes called, the last Adam.

Absolutely not! That is blasphemous heresy. The Son did not 'empty Himself' of all that it means to be the Divine Creator in order to incarnate as a man since that is a direct contradiction of the revelation that God is both Eternal and Immutable?! What the Son gave up in order to Incarnate was not His Divine Attributes (i.e. that which makes Him Divine) since, as Immutable, He is not capable of doing that, but only the way in which He manifests Himself as Divine to His Creation (i.e. the glory of the Divine Nature rather than the Divine Nature itself (Jn.17:5; Phil.2:5-11)).

To say that the Son '...emptied Himself of all but Love' (to quote Charles Wesley's well-loved hymn 'And can it be') in order to incarnate as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth is to say that Jesus was nothing other than a regular guy wearing a tee-shirt emblazoned on which were the words 'I AM GOD'...in other words the Messiah was not really God but merely God in name only?! That is heresy (not to mention metaphysical nonsense).

Keep in mind, when you are writing your rebuttal to this this, everything written about WHO Jesus IS was written after the writers found out themselves and that by revelation.

Yes, and...?

Sorry 'bout my choice of words. You have had some good things to say and didn't deserve that from me.

Apology accepted. You really need to brush up on your Christology. What you are espousing is not authentic orthodox theology and I'm of the opinion that you are just in error rather than an intransigent heretic.

Simonline.

 

[Ormly]

Yes, but He was still the Messiah even whilst He was being 'proven'. The Messiah was not 'chosen' only after He had 'proven' Himself. He was chosen from before the foundation of the world (1Pet.1:18-21). Therefore, as I have already said, He was the Messiah from the Begining.

Are you implying there is something magical in that title?

The Son did not stop being the Eternal Word of God (Jn.1:1,14) all the while that He was also incarnate as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth.

Then why would God give Him a Name above every name if the humanity of Jesus wasn't what this whole thing of "becoming" is all about.


OMT: Jesus only had one Nature and it was given Him as a human to protect it.

according to Scripture, the Messiah is NOT the 'seed of the Word' (?!), He is the seed of the woman

By revelation FACT, He was.

The Son Who has incarnated is Himself the Word (Jn.1:1,14)

The Son never existed before He was begotten. . . . unless, of course you can speak of His divine mother?

and therefore cannot also be the offspring of the Word (and you say that my posts are ludicrous)?!

Ludicrous? Well, lets just say you lack revelation truth. One pays that price for adhering too tightly to un-revelational orthodoxy.

 

[Breckmin]

Define it
Explain it
Provide an analogy.

I will go first:

God the father is the substance of God, he is the structure of God, he is the force that is called God. He is invisible, and impossible to understand in light of itself by man.

Jesus - As the likeness of a man's face is dependent on the form of the face, but by definition, the likeness is indivisible from the form, so Jesus is the image of the invisible God giving a likeness to the form of God. He is his "Logos", his word, and the summation of who he is,

The Holy Spirit - If one looks at a person, what they see is not the person himself, but rather the light that comes from the form of the person, and relays the likeness of the image of the form. So it is with the spirit, he proceeds from the father, and is the only way in which we can understand and see who God is, as he faithfully conveys the image who is God.

eternally begotten is probably better language than "proceeds from"

both have to be defined and clarified.

Personally, I am an ANT Monotheist

Here is a brief discussion I once had with Simonline a couple years ago:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7405278/#post53049203

 

[Breckmin]

Please understand that what "I" think is brief considering the raw tonnage and volumes of books written on systematic theology... and what you think is brief may be world's apart.

To me...any thing less than 300 pages is brief.

 

[Simonline]

Are you implying there is something magical in that title?

I'm a Christian, not a sorcerer. There is nothing magical about the title Messiah/Christ. It's just that, according to the Scriptures, the Eternal Son/Word(Logos)/Memre was chosen to be the Messiah/Christ before the Creation ever came into existence.

Then why would God give Him a Name above every name if the humanity of Jesus wasn't what this whole thing of "becoming" is all about.

Firstly, the name 'Jesus of Nazareth' refers to the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre existing as a human creature therefore Jesus of Nazareth is human and only human but the Person Who exists as Jesus of Nazareth also exists as the Divine Creator, YHWH.

The Father has given His Son (incarnate as human) the Name that is above all names as the reward for His absolute faithfulness. The Son (discarnate as Divine) already has the Name above all names. Thus YHWH has now exalted the human creature to the same rank and status as that of the Divine Creator (Phil.2:5-11).

OMT: Jesus only had one Nature and it was given Him as a human to protect it.

OMT?

Your statement is self-contradictory. How can Jesus as human have been given a human nature to protect it?! If Jesus was already human then of what need had he for a second human nature?!

The Messiah/Christ exists as TWO NATURES, one Eternally Divine (YHWH) and the other temporally human (Jesus of Nazareth). As human the Son is Jesus of Nazareth and only Jesus of Nazareth whilst as Divine the Son is YHWH and only YHWH.

By revelation FACT, He was.

Repeating the same heresy over and over again doe not make it true?! There is no such thing anywhere in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as 'the seed of the word'. If you are in complete denial about the truth then you are beyond help?

The Son never existed before He was begotten. . . . unless, of course you can speak of His divine mother?

If you're going to insist on being in permanent denial about the truth (2Cor.4:4) then this conversation is over?!

The Scriptures are clear that the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre is God (Jn.1:1) and therefore is everything that God is (i.e. Infinite, Eternal, Immutable, Omniscient, Omniopotent, Omnipresent, etc.). If you're just going to stick your head in the sand and keep repeating 'No, he isn't?!', contrary to all the Scriptural evidence, then there is no point in continuing this conversation.

Ludicrous? Well, lets just say you lack revelation truth. One pays that price for adhering too tightly to un-revelational orthodoxy.

Would the moderators care to suggest a course of action in such a case as this where the person is in total denial of reality?! In the real world this person would be asked to leave but lets never forget that the internet (and especially Christian forums where one is prohibited from speaking the truth) is NOT the real world.

Simonline.

 

[Ormly]

I'm a Christian, not a sorcerer. There is nothing magical about the title Messiah/Christ. It's just that, according to the Scriptures, the Eternal Son/Word(Logos)/Memre was chosen to be the Messiah/Christ before the Creation ever came into existence.

Only in the "Reality" of the Mind of God was the man Jesus, who was yet to be begotten of the Father__"In the fullness of time", become the eternal Son. Consider thinking predestination in this matter. Now, having said that: if you want to say the Word/Logos had a form, I would agree. . . But He was never a Son. . . In the fullness of time He became flesh and blood; was made a little lower than the angels to suffer as a man.

Firstly, the name 'Jesus of Nazareth' refers to the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre existing as a human creature therefore Jesus of Nazareth is human and only human but the Person Who exists as Jesus of Nazareth also exists as the Divine Creator, YHWH.

When did He exist as the Divine creator and still be called the begotten Son of God?? Can you answer that??

The Father has given His Son (incarnate as human) the Name that is above all names as the reward for His absolute faithfulness. The Son (discarnate as Divine) already has the Name above all names. Thus YHWH has now exalted the human creature to the same rank and status as that of the Divine Creator (Phil.2:5-11).

The Word was with God and was God from the beginning___ before Jesus was born.

OMT? = One More Thing

Your statement is self-contradictory. How can Jesus as human have been given a human nature to protect it?! If Jesus was already human then of what need had he for a second human nature?!

No so. Consider your own lack of understanding. Jesus never had a human nature to protect. His Nature was of His Father. Ergo, It was a Divine Nature He was given to protect. Jesus succeeded is this whereas, Adam failed.

The Messiah/Christ exists as TWO NATURES, one Eternally Divine (YHWH) and the other temporally human (Jesus of Nazareth). As human the Son is Jesus of Nazareth and only Jesus of Nazareth whilst as Divine the Son is YHWH and only YHWH.

Nope. And if one is born again [which I don't believe you are] he is 'imputed' a new divine Nature, just like the one Jesus had for to do what Jesus did, overcome the enemy of that new, imputed, Divine Nature, i.e., his own rotten flesh. Read Jesus' prayer for His disciples in John 17, for the first time.

Repeating the same heresy over and over again doe not make it true?! There is no such thing anywhere in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as 'the seed of the word'. If you are in complete denial about the truth then you are beyond help?

Watch it bloke. You are out of line!

If you're going to insist on being in permanent denial about the truth (2Cor.4:4) then this conversation is over?!

The Scriptures are clear that the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre is God (Jn.1:1) and therefore is everything that God is (i.e. Infinite, Eternal, Immutable, Omniscient, Omniopotent, Omnipresent, etc.). If you're just going to stick your head in the sand and keep repeating 'No, he isn't?!', contrary to all the Scriptural evidence, then there is no point in continuing this conversation.

Try again. It is you who need to explain the many, various, scripture passages that you heretofore have not addressed.

John 1:1 doesn't even begin to support your assertions and I have given you the reason why John COULD NOT even have known such things BEFORE John 20:22 happened. . . . Nor did Jesus EVER declare Himself to be God, nor did He before John knew it to write it as he did. In all ACTUALITY, the ascension of Jesus was when everything of Jesus was 'Really' FINISHED.

Would the moderators care to suggest a course of action in such a case as this where the person is in total denial of reality?! In the real world this person would be asked to leave but lets never forget that the internet (and especially Christian forums where one is prohibited from speaking the truth) is NOT the real world.

Simonline.

Now show me heresy in any of what I posited??

I repeat, I don't believe you are born again. You have no insight in this matter.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I repeat, I don't believe you are born again. You have no insight in this matter.

Fortunately, that's not your decision or judgment to make.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ormly]

Fortunately, that's not your decision or judgment to make.

-CryptoLutheran

Why not? The spiritual man is to judge all thing spiritual. Prove, run out, test, put it up against God's Plumbline.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Why not? The spiritual man is to judge all thing spiritual. Prove, run out, test, put it up against God's Plumbline.

Last I checked Jesus is the One who will discern those on the left and the right of Him, wheat and tares, sheep and goats.

If being a "spiritual man" means what you apparently think it means, then I would rather not be spiritual--I would rather defer to Jesus the right to make Judgment and hope for grace with the faith He has given me to believe and trust in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ormly]

Last I checked Jesus is the One who will discern those on the left and the right of Him, wheat and tares, sheep and goats.

If being a "spiritual man" means what you apparently think it means, then I would rather not be spiritual--I would rather defer to Jesus the right to make Judgment and hope for grace with the faith He has given me to believe and trust in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

Consider this to be the reality of the privilege for those who pursue John 17:3:

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:21-23 (KJV)

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Consider this to be the reality of the privilege for those who pursue John 17:3:

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:21-23 (KJV)

And, amazingly, nothing there says you're one of Jesus' special spiritual elite who gets to stand in judgment of the eternal fate and salvation of your neighbor.

That's still God's job. Not yours, not mine.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ormly]

And, amazingly, nothing there says you're one of Jesus' special spiritual elite who gets to stand in judgment of the eternal fate and salvation of your neighbor.

That's still God's job. Not yours, not mine.

-CryptoLutheran

And, amazingly, nothing there says you're one of Jesus' special spiritual elite who gets to stand in judgment of the eternal fate and salvation of your neighbor.

That's still God's job. Not yours, not mine.

-CryptoLutheran

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:21-23 (KJV)

Do you believe that passage?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:21-23 (KJV)

Do you believe that passage?

Do I believe that Jesus wants His Church to be unified? Yes. Yes I believe this; but tragically we've been divided since the 5th century between the Church of the East, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestants and Roman Catholics.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ormly]

Do I believe that Jesus wants His Church to be unified? Yes. Yes I believe this; but tragically we've been divided since the 5th century between the Church of the East, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestants and Roman Catholics.

-CryptoLutheran

Ah, then it all boils down to who is His Church. Isn't that correct?

 

[Simonline]

I'm a Christian, not a sorcerer. There is nothing magical about the title Messiah/Christ. It's just that, according to the Scriptures, the Eternal Son/Word(Logos)/Memre was chosen to be the Messiah/Christ before the Creation ever came into existence.

Only in the "Reality" of the Mind of God was the man Jesus, who was yet to be begotten of the Father__"In the fullness of time", become the eternal Son. Consider thinking predestination in this matter. Now, having said that: if you want to say the Word/Logos had a form, I would agree. . . But He was never a Son. . . In the fullness of time He became flesh and blood; was made a little lower than the angels to suffer as a man.

You're talking nonsense again.

The Second Person of the Trinity [the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre] is the Eternally Begotten Son of the Father. That means that the Son, like the Father, has neither Begining nor End. He [the Son], like the Father, exists as Eternal, having neither Begining nor End (Isa.48:12; Jn.1:1; Jn.8:58; Rev.1:11,17; 21:6; 22:13). If the Son already exists as Eternal then He CANNOT 'come into existence' because He ALREADY Exists?!

To deny the Sonship of the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH is heresy. The Scriptures reveal that YHWH Exists both Eternally and Immutably as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Second Person [the Son] is eternally begotten of the First Person [the Father]. In other words, the existence of the Father necessitates the existence of the Son (Jn.1:1) and neither Person [Father or Son] exists without the other. The Father begets the Son but He does it Eternally. There is NEVER a point when One of those Persons exists without the other. They are inseparable.

As for your assertion that the Word(Logos) had a form(?!) That is a direct contradiction of the Messiah's statement that God is Spirit (Jn.4:24) and therefore has no coporeal form?! When the Bible declares that 'no man can see God and live' it is because there is no corporeal form to see but also because for a finite creature to come into direct contact with God as non-corporeal Absolute Reality would utterly destoy him.

Firstly, the name 'Jesus of Nazareth' refers to the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre existing as a human creature therefore Jesus of Nazareth is human and only human but the Person Who exists as Jesus of Nazareth also exists as the Divine Creator, YHWH.

When did He exist as the Divine creator and still be called the begotten Son of God?? Can you answer that??

Not 'did', does. The Son is Eternally begotten of the Father not temporally begotten. The Son ALWAYS exists as the Divine Creator just as the Father and the Holy Spirit ALWAYS exist as the Divine Creator. However, it is not as the Divine Creator that the Son is the 'Son of God' since that would be absurd nonsense. It is as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth that the Son exists as the 'Son of God' (i.e. the human incarnation of God). As the Divine Creator the Son is the Son of the Father (and both the Father and the Son (along with the Holy Spirit) are God/YHWH) but He is NOT the Son of God. In other words, as Divine He is God but NOT 'the Son of God' whilst as human He is 'the Son of God' but NOT God.

The Son as Divine Creator is NOT the temporally begotten 'Son of God'. That is only true of the Son existing as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth but NOT of the Son existing as the Divine Creator YHWH.

The Word was with God and was God from the beginning___ before Jesus was born.

YES! AMEN! But what you are failing to realize is that it is the same single PERSON [the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre - the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH] in both cases, existing eternally as Divine Creator and temporally as human creature.

OMT?

= One More Thing

Thank you. Don't use abreviations until you have first explained what they mean. It makes for much better communication.

No so. Consider your own lack of understanding. Jesus never had a human nature to protect. His Nature was of His Father. Ergo, It was a Divine Nature He was given to protect. Jesus succeeded is this whereas, Adam failed.

Not true. Consider your own lack of understanding?! The Messiah is the human incarnation of the Divine Creator YHWH (Heb.2:17). He is not 'God in a gorrilla suit'?! The Messiah is not 'human on the outside whilst Divine on the inside'?! That is just metaphysical nonsense. The Messiah is the Second Person of the Trinity existing as an authentic human creature - body, soul and spirit - human through and through...just like the rest of us (Heb.2:17) except that He was/is sinless. That's why, as human, He is the Son of God but NOT God whilst as Divine He is God but NOT the 'Son of God' There is nothing human about the Son's existence as the Divine Creator just as there is nothing Divine about His existence as the human creature.

One cannot merge the two natures into one. One nature is exclusively Divine whilst the other nature is exclusively human and yet somehow the Person manages to exist as both Divine Creator and human creature without confusing the natures by merging them into one (a metaphysical impossibility...even for God)?!

Nope. And if one is born again [which I don't believe you are] he is 'imputed' a new divine Nature, just like the one Jesus had for to do what Jesus did, overcome the enemy of that new, imputed, Divine Nature, i.e., his own rotten flesh. Read Jesus' prayer for His disciples in John 17, for the first time.

If you see me participating in the same resurrection as you then you will know that I am not born again. If you don't see me participating in the same resurrection as you then you will finally know that you were wrong?!

No finite human creature (including the Messiah) is capable of existing as the Infinite Divine Creator and therefore to assert that one has a 'new Divine nature' imputed to them upon becoming born again is just metaphysical nonsense and cast iron proof that the person who said that has absolutely no idea about what they are saying?!

Furthermore the resurrection body of the Messiah was not Divine, it was human. How do I know this? Because the apostle Paul tells us that we will also be changed in exactly the same way as was the Messiah at His resurrection. Just as the Messiah died as a human creature so He was resurrected as a human creature. In the same way, we will also be resurrected as human creatures (not Divine Creators?!) because, as I have already said, finite human creatures are not capable of existing as the Infinite Divine Creator.

Furthermore, what people are given when they become regenerate (i.e 'born again') is NOT a resurrection body or 'a new Divine nature' (?!) but their human spirit is made alive in order that they might fellowship with God (Eph.2:1). Since the human spirit of the Messiah was never dead as the result of sin, He has never had any need to repent of his own sin or to pray and ask for forgiveness for His own sin and so has never had any need to have His own spirit made alive again by the Holy Spirit. Thus the Messiah has never been 'born again'?!

Watch it bloke. You are out of line!

I don't think so?! In fact I think I have touched a raw nerve because somewhere inside of you you know that what I am saying is the truth and you just don't like being exposed as wrong?!

Try again. It is you who need to explain the many, various, scripture passages that you heretofore have not addressed.

Sorry, but I'm not busting a gut providing loads of irrefutable evidence (irrefutable at least to any reasonable person) whilst you just sit there with your eyes closed and your head between your legs (so that your thighs are clamped over your ears) denying it all?!

John 1:1 doesn't even begin to support your assertions and I have given you the reason why John COULD NOT even have known such things BEFORE John 20:22 happened. . . . Nor did Jesus EVER declare Himself to be God, nor did He before John knew it to write it as he did. In all ACTUALITY, the ascension of Jesus was when everything of Jesus was 'Really' FINISHED.

So when the Messiah declared from the cross 'It is finished' He was actually lying then?! If you're going to live in your own little bubble of a universe completely detached from all reality then there is no point in trying to have any kind of reasonable discussion or serious debate with you?!

Now show me heresy in any of what I posited??

I repeat, I don't believe you are born again. You have no insight in this matter.

Like I said, you're completely detached from reality, living in your own little world. If you ever decide to plug yourself back into reality then maybe we can talk again. Until that time, forget it!

Simonline.

 

[Ormly]

Nonsense!!??

The Second Person of the Trinity [the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre] is the Eternally Begotten Son of the Father.

Chapter and verse please as that being a truth BEFORE He was begotten! If it is as you say, that Jesus was a son before He was begotten, who was His mother?

OMT: Even after He was begotten, as He was, when did He become the second Person of the Trinity, as you speak of it?
You don't seem to be able to make good distinctions. But then that is the way it is when there is only head knowledge to rely upon.